Rent Control and Housing Affordability

Jason Hartman and investment counselor Adam start the show discussing some troubling trends in the real estate market. They open with the state of California enacting state-wide rent control. They discuss how this will lead to other negative policies for real estate investors. They look at the housing affordability issue that’s been prevalent for the past few years.

Investor 0:00
started listening to the podcast did that you know for probably a couple years before I connected with your investment counselor, she did a great job of kind of holding my hand through the process I probably wanted to the more needy client she worked with, but ended up buying my first property in 2011 in Atlanta, and then waited a couple of few more years until my next one, but 2014 purchased in Memphis. And so that’s where I am at this point.

Announcer 0:29
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants. Bed involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 1:19
Welcome to Episode 1282 1282. Thanks for joining us today. We’ve got a lot to talk about. If you haven’t heard the news, it looks like the Socialist Republic of California is really, really getting close to state wide rent control. Of course, as always, this will be an absolute disaster. But we’ll see. We’ll do kind of a point counterpoint here on it. I’ve got Adam here with me who has been listening to NPR over the weekend. So you know, we’re going to have some opposite viewpoints. Adam, what have you been hearing about communist rock and roll

Adam 2:01
So one of the things that stuck out to me whenever I was listening, is they were discussing some of the things that landlords were going to have to do to get rid of tenants. And it absolutely blew my mind and made me wonder who on earth was going to be willing to be a landlord in that state? Because one of the things that the bill talks about as potentially doing is landlords who want to evict their tenants might have to pay for their tenants first month in their next

Jason Hartman 2:29
lodging in their new place. Yep. So in other words, it’s kind of the way California really, is it always against the employer? You know, they make it very difficult to lay anybody off to adjust to the economy and your business. And so now, if you want someone to move, you got to go find them a new place and pay for it, right.

Adam 2:49
It’s like, he’s on steroids.

Jason Hartman 2:51
Yeah. Yeah, just to give you the context, what Adams referring to which are a common expression that came out of the Great Recession, cash for keys when lenders would foreclose on properties. They couldn’t get the tenants to move out, or the former owners, I should say, or maybe it was investor that let a property go to foreclosure. And they had a tenant in there, whatever the case tenant former owner properties foreclosed on, they would let her literally give them cash if they would agree to move. And usually that was, you know, somewhere in the ballpark of maybe $3,000 or so saying, hey, look, if you’ll just get out of here, I’ll pay you to move so I don’t have to go through the eviction process. So in a rent controlled environment in California, here’s what really happens in real life. While many dynamics crop up the gray market, the black market. There’s even a Seinfeld episode about this, where you know, people are waiting for people to die in rent controlled apartments, where landlords are doing all sorts of nasty things to make it so unpleasant for the tenants that they will just hopefully move. They want to get them out. So badly. There’s lots of stories like this in San Francisco, Santa Monica. I remember a guy knew moved to Southern California, and had a rent controlled apartment in San Francisco that his friends were leasing from him. Of course, the landlord didn’t know this. And you know, it’s completely illegal, right? But they’re trying to keep that incredibly low rate. There’s just all sorts of bad dynamics that occur. The same way things did with getting things done in the former Soviet Union, or trading food and clothing and shoes on the black market and the Soviet Union. It’s just crazy. What happens here and this is probably going to happen this time. I mean, Gavin Newsom is in favor of it. And all he has to do now is sign off. And, you know, California has now statewide rent control. Yeah, I’m only playing about his tweet on September 12, where he said, you know, counting it saying he’s about to enact the strongest renter, protect And the nation, because there should be a cap on how much you pay for rent, because your landlord shouldn’t be able to evict you for no reason. It’s about time. The thing is the landlord’s not trying to evict people for no reason. There’s usually a reason if they’re trying to evict you, most people don’t just come along and February and say, Well, you know, your lease is up in five months, but it sure would be better if you just got out of here now. And so I’m going to go through all these court proceedings and pay all this money to file on, you know, these people who are getting kicked out of their place, there’s cause and so the fact that there should be a cap on how much you pay for rent, that depends on who you are and what your priorities are. It is absolutely dysfunctional. It will ruin the market and it will harm the people they say they’re trying to help. It will cause a massive housing shortage. You think the housing shortage is bad in California now, or in many places around the country, and we’re going to talk about that. In the second part of today’s episode, you Institute rent control And every apartment developer will decide, oh, look, let’s just finish whatever we have in the pipeline in California, but we’re not gonna build anymore. Every apartment owner will try and convert their units to condos. They will look for a way out of this disaster, it causes the market be totally stagnant. It will reduce the business for real estate brokers for apartment finders for property managers. Everybody will be hurt by this. Everybody will be hurt by it. It’s a disaster everywhere. It’s right and every time it’s right. You know, I remember reading back then real estate developer Donald Trump’s book when I was 24 years old. And he was talking about how all of these celebrities had these which by the way, his book art of the deal, even if you hate Trump is really quite good. All these celebrities and wealthy people in New York City have these rent controlled apartments right around Central Park at best areas, and they wouldn’t have them up. The rank and form was not helping the people. It was supposed to help. What ends up happening is, is this totally dysfunctional market where there’s under the table payoffs and all sorts of things and just a massive construction of supply. When I interviewed our one of our video producers on the show a few years ago, Patrick is his name, you can go to Jason Hartman, calm, use the search bar and listen to that interview. He lives in San Francisco and a place that’s probably worth, like 1.7 million or something like that. Now, he and his wife and his wife’s an attorney pay like 20 $400 a month or something like that. And they really want to move and they can’t move, because they can never come close to duplicating the deal they have now. So you might think in one hand, oh, well, that’s good. They’ve got a good deal. And they’ve got you know, if you’re on the side of rent control, they’ve got a good deal, and they’ve got protection. So the rent since they rented that place, I think in the late 90s. He said their rent has hard gone up at all. But because the market has become so dysfunctional, and nothing is priced to the market, because of all this construction of supply due to rent control, they’re stuck. They want to move but they can’t move. So guess what happens? The market for new furniture, new appliances, home improvement, rehabbing of properties, real estate brokers, lenders, it all becomes totally constricted. And it becomes really like this zombie market where economic activity is just massively suppressed. It’s just weighs on the whole economy and suppresses everything. I mean, why do you think there’s such a shortage of housing and all these rent controlled areas is because nobody wants to come in and supply housing. When you have the government looking over your shoulder saying, You can’t do this. He can’t do that. You can’t price your properties based on the market is just Unbelievable.

Adam 9:00
It’s the ultimate treating the symptom and not the cause in this respect, I mean, if you want to really do rent control, build houses, yeah. Right? If you really want to know how to solve your problem, because I mean, you can rent control all you want, there’s still more people looking for housing than there are houses available. That’s your problem. You have too many people for not enough places. So either the prices are going to go up, or you need to build more simply closing the price down isn’t a good solution. I mean, it just doesn’t work. It’s one of the few things that actually unites economists and all those other people who have different disagreements on everything else. But they’ll agree you know, rent control is not the way to go.

Jason Hartman 9:34
Adam, I want to congratulate you. I think you’re becoming a capitalist. This is great. I’ve always been a capitalist. Oh, gosh, oh, gosh. Well, we’ll argue about that one later. But basically, this bill will cap annual rent increases at 5%. Which sounds okay, including the rate of inflation now depends what the rate of inflation is. percent total, probably What’s up?

Adam 10:00
Just call it probably 7% total.

Jason Hartman 10:02
Yeah. So now in California, one of the nation’s prices housing markets is following Oregon’s footsteps. In enacting rent control in March, Oregon approved the law, placing an annual limit on rent increases of 7% plus inflation. So there will be a ton of complexity in this. It’s never this simple. I’m sure this bill is probably hundreds of pages long. And landlords will have to hire lawyers to make sure they’re in compliance. Just just be a disaster. Ultimately, it’s it’s something else. Now the next thing by the way, and we have talked about this over the years, they are starting to attack, prop 13, Howard Jarvis, who basically was the guy that made prop 13 happened in the late 70s in California, which is one of the reasons that market was able to do as much as it’s done. Over the years without prop 13, California will really really suffer. And that’s of course, limiting taxes us the state component of taxes to 1% on property taxes, but they are whittling away at prop 13. And that’s the next thing to go. This is going to be quite something, Adam, let’s take a quick break and talk about our contest. And then we’re going to come back and talk about affordability overall, and where renters are moving, why they’re moving to these certain metro areas to the certain cities. And let’s dive into that topic.

Adam 11:34
Alright, so we’ve got, as most of you have probably heard by now, we’re all about the empowered investor in this podcast and the company. Everything we do is about empowering investors. And so we have the empowered investor contest going on which you know, fitting name. So the contest, really simple. You make a YouTube video, you talk about how you’re going to become an empowered investor. What you’re going to do what steps you’re going to take over the next one to 510 whatever you need to do to figure out how you’re going to become empowered, and that is that number of years, you didn’t say 125 10. Yeah. number of years, what are you gonna do in the next two days? It’s gonna make you hard for the rest of your life. What are your plans? Like? How are you going to make yourself a better investor and more empowered investor and march yourself towards your ultimate goal, whether that’s financial independence, whether it’s just a little bit of independence, you know, however, whatever your goal is, how are you going to strengthen yourself to be able to reach that goal?

Jason Hartman 12:30
Let’s give some examples of that before we talk about making the video. So it could be as simple as your five year plan, like the contest we had a year and a half ago for meet the masters. And we had some great entries for that. We’re going to play one of them for you here in just a moment to give you an example. And that is Adam Franz Adam, thanks for submitting your video. So we’re just going to play an example of that. So it could be just a matter of outlining your plan, writing down your goals and sharing them on a video, it could be talking about how you’re going to view your investments, evaluate your investments, how you’re going to manage your property managers, or how you’re going to self manage your properties. There is really sort of that we’re leaving it kind of just an open playing field, whatever you are doing to empower yourself to be an empowered investor. You have a lot of free reign in this contest. Okay. And we got some great prizes do so go ahead.

Adam 13:28
So once you make your video, like we said, we want it to be the big thing. So no more than 10 minutes because

Jason Hartman 13:34
it could be three minutes, it

Adam 13:36
could be three minutes, but no more than 10 because and by the way,

Jason Hartman 13:39
short, yeah, listen, listeners will be surprised. 10 minutes goes really fast. You might think make a 10 minute video that’s too hard. Well, usually the hard part is once you get started, it’s making it concise and not going off on tangents like I do.

Adam 13:56
So you post your video to YouTube. Then you go to Jason hartman.com slash contest. And you need to tell us who you are. What, what where your video is. Yeah the link the link to the video because we’re going to post it on our YouTube channel too. And then you just get everybody you know to go and watch your video. Because if you want to win some tickets, the profits in paradise or your membership to the empowered investor community, you’re going to need all the views you can get.

Jason Hartman 14:23
Yeah, well actually, you’re not going to need too many views to win that. But if you want the super bonus prize, which means a $3,000 allowance toward our cruise, that’ll pay for one ticket and most of the second ticket to the cruise if you want to bring a guest that’s our October New England fall foliage Canada cruise that is in while just about a month from now. So we want to get your videos in and the deadline for entries is 11:59pm. Eastern, September 23. So yeah One week from when we’re recording Yes. And so get your videos in any video that gets over 1000 views on our channel and over 200 views on your channel we’ve heard her we’ve got some traffic for you will qualify for the cruise bonus as well. But first prize two free tickets to prophets in Paradise and a one year membership in the empowered investor community. second prize is two tickets to prophets in paradise. third prize is one ticket. So yeah, some great stuff. And like we said before Adam, you shouldn’t even do this for the prizes. The real thing, just look at those as the frosting on the cake. The real reason to do this is for yourself, for your own benefit in outlining your plan, cementing how you’re going to be the empowered investor. And that’s really the big reason to do it. Okay.

Adam 15:55
Don’t do it for the money but the money is nice.

Jason Hartman 15:59
It’s a nice bonus Okay, let’s share an example. Adam friends and thank you for submitting this video. This was about a year and a half ago. Let’s share this example. And then we’re going to come back we’re going to talk about the Trump administration response to rent control, and the prey stout issue on where renters are going, and home buyers are going because the rent is too damn high. The prices are too damn high. And this is a good opportunity for investors to notice. So here is one of the entries from our last five year plan contest and we will be right back after this.

Adam 16:38
Hey everyone, so I wanted to put together my five year plan. I figured I should put it somewhere where I’ll see it on a regular basis. So welcome to my bathroom and I’ll take you into my closet where I written my five year plan on this giant mirror. That way, every day I go into the closet to get ready for the day, and that’s where I’ll see it started off at the very top with with year five, I figured it would be best if I had that as my main goal. And so I’ll go through those year 432 and one. I put this together last night on the mirror, and then realized it’s incredibly hard to read. So I went ahead and also put them up on the wall right next to me, I’m going to keep them up on the mirror. That way, it’s always staring me in the face, but wanted to come over here. And I’ve got starting again, at year five. I in 2022, I will be turning 39 and would really like to make it onto the 40 under 40 list here in Utah. That’s just a recognition list for those who have accomplished some good things. Want to be in a relationship with someone who inspires me that we’re working on currently add 15 doors to investment portfolio, own 50 doors, and I averaged out. If cash flow was around 333 per unit per month, that should be around $200,000 per year cash flow. Want to be working on a buyout strategy for a tech company that I invested in a few years ago? They’re doing quite well. And hopefully, we will be looking at a buyout. A really healthy buyout in about five years. Want to be a venture Alliance member, that would be a great startup this year would go to Palm Springs and then just continue that on for the next five years. And then after learning and growing in the last five in the next five years, I’d love to be taking a role where I help others in the creating wealth and obviously have fun doing it.

Adam 19:08
year for

Adam 19:11
I want to be able to take my parents on an amazing vacation. My parents have done so much for me in my life and and they lost so much in the recession. And so as far as the retirement goes, they don’t have much going for them. And so I I would love to be able to help them out and and take care of them. I work in real estate and I’d love to do hundred million dollars in sales in 2021

Adam 19:45
and 35 doors

Adam 19:48
that would be adding 10 doors from the previous year. So what I did is I just worked backwards. So as we get to year one, we’ll see that and then augment my life insurance. policies for tax free growth. I am getting started with paradigm life this year. Well, starting in 2020 2018. So year one, I’m working with Gary Pinkerton over at paradigm life. And I’m really excited about what, what we can do to move my 401k and, and other life insurance policies over to something that will actually give me the benefit of being able to also do real estate investing, and then want to expand the charitable outreach programs that the tech startup company has been working on.

Adam 20:38
year three,

Adam 20:41
want to add 10 doors to my investment portfolio with the Jason Hartman group on 25 doors at that time, with an average of hundred thousand dollars per year of cash flow, actively be dating and building good relationships and then You know, sometimes we get so involved in, in the financing and and work and jobs and so I have to remind myself to also be actively dating and building good relationships,

Adam 21:11
travel and explore new country.

Adam 21:15
I’ve, I’ve traveled around the world, but I would love to continue that on and, and my job as of late has kind of made it so that I haven’t had the free time to do so. And I’d love to get back into that. At this point, I’d love to be able to network with the venture Alliance members and create amazing opportunities with them and do $75 million in sales volume that windemere the brokerage that I’m working at here to add 10 doors to my investment portfolio, own 15 doors so it obviously it’s counting down as we’re going down the years but do 35 million in sales volume, visit my siblings and spend time with family so As my siblings have all gone off to, to different colleges and to pursue their careers, we’ve, it gets harder and harder to see them. And so I love my family and I’m excited to go visit them and need the time to do so. attend all venture Alliance events. So, we’d love to you know, as as I become a venture venture Alliance member to attend those events and, and grow from what I learned from others there, learn a new skill. I love that one because I do really, I find, trying to do things that make me nervous or scared. They build build me up and doing those things that scare you are, are exciting. So I want to mentor some of the youth. That’s a turtle give back and mentor youth at the incircle program in Provo, Utah. This one is near and dear to my heart. It’s a group in Provo, Utah that helps young adults as they’re navigating their way through through college and their teenage years and year one, take time, date and build relationships mediate for meditate for 45 minutes, three days a week, go to bed before 11pm week before 6am. And read four books. These are all mostly just building good habits and some of them I’ve been working on for quite a while. And then so just kind of maintaining some of these habits attend venture Alliance, meet the Masters in Palm Springs definitely have that on my list of goals to do in year one, own five doors and make about $20,000 that year in cash flow. I’m currently opening up my life insurance policy through paradigm life like I mentioned, and the initial investment will be around 100,000 dollars that I’m putting down and then doing something around $40,000 annually of putting into the life insurance policy. So I’m excited things and exciting things. And I’m looking forward to, to reaching these goals in five years.

Jason Hartman 24:17
Okay, so hope you enjoyed that just as an example. And remember, you’ve got a lot more latitude than we did last time on the five year plan. You can make your empowered investor video about a plan, or you can just make it about anything that’s going to help you become empowered. Adam, the Trump administration does not like rent control do thing.

Adam 24:38
I would say that if I had to put it on his list of things that he likes, it would not be too high on the list because the Treasury released its housing finance reform we saw here on housing wire, and they’re looking at curbing Fannie and Freddie multifamily lending in areas that adopt rent control and when you’re talking areas and you start talking an entire city That’s gonna make it even more interesting. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 25:03
yeah. So one of the big sources of capital to finance apartment projects, whether they be brand new projects that are being built, or resales that are being, you know, purchased by investors is that Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the government sponsored entities that are big part of the mortgage market, the biggest part of the mortgage market, it’s not just in single family homes. The Trump administration says that they will curb any lending for projects in rent controlled states or cities, they will curb this opportunity to obtain this type of financing in these areas. Wow, that is going to even further disincentivize and restrict the motivation of investors to either build or buy in these areas. You know, you could look at this as like tit for tat But look, the federal government shouldn’t even be in this business anyway. Okay, and it is going away. In general the movement is and we talked about this many times in prior episodes, the movement is away from this government sponsored entity type of financing. Okay, the movement is definitely away from it rent control or not. But the position is that if it’s in a rent controlled area, to curb it even further and faster, because they want to disincentivize these crazy politicians in places like California, my former home from instituting these absolutely silly laws, rank and roll is a disaster. Every time it’s right everywhere it’s tried. It’s never been a success anywhere ever. And there’s just no argument against that. By the way. I should open this up once one second. If you think I’m wrong, You think avoid, go to Jason hartman.com slash ask for anything. We talked on the show to talk about on the show. Leave your comments, tell us we’re crazy. Tell us we’re brilliant. Tell us whatever you want. We’re always happy to hear your feedback. Jason Hartman comm slash ask Adam.

Adam 27:16
So this is going to be one of those things, that’s kind of like runaway inflation, because as soon as they start restricting these loans and housing gets built, even less than it’s going to be, you’re going to see the the quote, unquote, need the feel for the need for rent control, to kick and even more, and people are going to become even more afraid of, you know, not having a rent control place, because they’ll just say, Oh, my rent will skyrocket. So this is something that it’s going to create a hold. It’s hard to come out of these states because I mean, can you see a date where California says, you know, what, we have a need of, I don’t know, 3 million homes in the state. So we’re just gonna throw off all of our building regulations and go for constructors. That’s never gonna happen. The road out This is gonna be is absolutely brutal.

Jason Hartman 28:03
Yeah, it’s almost impossible to get out of an atom, what you’re referring to is it’s just this vicious circle, you know, because one thing leads to another leads to another. The real thing that caused this problem is unbridled immigration control, you know, allowing massive amounts of capital from China, the Middle East, but really anywhere, coming buy up all the California properties make prices increase radically, having Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and having the government sponsored financing the way they the way Sallie Mae sponsors student loans. Of course, there’s just massive inflation in anything that the government subsidizes and a subsidized housing and that subsidizes college. So inflation goes rampant. What a surprise. And then the fact that you just have building that’s too restricted and then they create all these laws trying to The problem, they’re just a band aid, they’re hacking at the the weeds rather than the roots, the branch rather than the root, you got to hack up the root. And the root is there’s a shortage because of those root problems as well as some others. And so it won’t you don’t undo this very easily. You really don’t. And then let’s shift to kind of how just generally speaking, a lot of people are viewing affordability as a national crisis. Now, rent is rising rents in larger metro areas, the renters want out, don’t they? They’re just moving to these tertiary markets because they cannot afford the expensive places. Right, Adam?

Adam 29:40
Yeah, well, basically, it should be saying people are waking up to the fact that there’s a housing crisis in the country because, I mean, we’ve been talking about it here forever, you know, good quality rental housing is hard to find these days. And so there was a study done or survey done for hot pads and it showed that 45 or 44 out of 50 of the largest us metro areas, renders are having to start looking outside the areas that they mostly want to live in. because they can’t afford to pay the rent that

Jason Hartman 30:10
is wanted in the area they live in. So one of the things we have in real estate it when it comes to home buyers, is the same drive until you qualify. Okay, so in other words, keep driving further and further out, away from your job until you can qualify for a loan. Okay, dry drive until you qualify, right. And then as you’re doing that commute, you see these signs up on apartment complexes that say if you lived here, you’d be home by now. Okay. And so that’s what happens. And generally speaking, you find that renters or tenants aren’t willing to drive as far as homeowners. You know, if you can own a home, the way you kind of look at is you’ll drive further out to own but renters they don’t drive as much. They’re just not willing to drive. That’s the one benefit renters usually have is that they’re a little closer to work, right. But they have to take a step down and their standard of living and lifestyle. And, you know, arguably, if you think owning is better than renting, then they’re not building for their future, which is the American myth or the American dream. We’ve depends on appreciation. Yeah, well, a lot of other things. I mean, we’ve talked about that ad nauseum. But we’ll leave that for another day, or or a past day, just go to Jason Hartman, calm and search one of our many episodes on that topic. But you know, the median rent in the United States is now 1500 and $60 a month. That’s crazy. Okay. Wow. And that’s got to be in the large metro areas. I think that that survey number has to be a little flawed. I am so country but

Adam 31:47
I actually did a little quick back in the napkin math on that. And if the median rent is $1,560, if everybody spent 40% of their income on housing, which would be Pretty high over a whole year, you would need to make $47,000 to qualify for that to be 40% of your income. So I mean, that’s the median rent is getting to the point where that’s a really pretty good income.

Jason Hartman 32:12
Yeah, to be able to reach and that’s at 40%. I mean, if it was it 30 or 33%, you’re looking at even more. So. I mean, it’s getting to the point where everybody’s getting priced out. It’s not just the people on the low end, everybody is, yeah, and think of that from the perspective of what I’ve said before, if you want to have a whole slew of people, basically working for you, investor listener, if you want to have a bunch of people working for you, one thing you could do is go start a business and hire them and do all that babysitting. You’ve got to do right and take all that risk. But the other thing you can do is simply just own a bunch of rental properties, and 40% of every month 40% of every year, those tenants will be working for you because that The amount of rental income they’re going to give you, they’re going to take 40% of their income. So if they earn $100,000 a year just for round numbers, they’re going to pay you 40 grand a year. And if they don’t pay quite that much, then they’re going to pay you at least $33,000 a year 33% of their income. So what a deal every single month, they’re working the first 10 days, 1213 days of that month for you investors, that is a phenomenal opportunity. You know what, you’re going to return the favor by providing them good rental housing. So that is a great way to go.

Adam 33:40
And you don’t even have to give them a W two or a 1099.

Jason Hartman 33:43
Yeah, right. You don’t have all of that complexity. You don’t have to manage their payroll and all kinds of stuff. But if if you do all those properties in California, when you want them to move out, you probably got to go rent a new house for them to pay their first month’s

Adam 33:55
rent, maybe build one

Jason Hartman 33:56
so so don’t do that. Yeah. Okay, we got to wrap it up because Sure to go to Jason Hartman comm slash contest. Get the details on our contest, put the link to your video there. We can’t wait to see it. We also look forward to seeing you at our upcoming events, our crews event and our profits in paradise. Those are right on the front page at Jason Hartman calm. Thanks for listening and until tomorrow, happy investing. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that and be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

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