Negative Interest Rates & The Mass Affluent

Jason Hartman starts the show talking about negative interest rates. He talks about why this would actually happen and the reaction of people if it were to happen. He ends the discussion with a look at Dan Kennedy’s thoughts on the mass affluent and the impact on the middle class.

Announcer 0:02
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 0:52
Welcome to Episode 1267 1267. Thank you for joining me today. Want to continue today, talking About the mass affluent population, what that means to investors. But first, there is a lot of Well, I don’t know if it’s a lot, but there’s some talk about this amazing phenomenon that we have only touched on previously throughout history. And that is the idea of negative interest rates. We did some stories on this several years ago. And it is back. This is just a strange financial world in which we live. You know, the, the Chinese have that saying, may you live in interesting times, right. And we certainly lived in interesting times during the Great Recession 10 years ago, but there are some odd oddities with the way central banks are acting. Now. The way the bond market is acting, and this concept of negative interest rates, I mean, it is just unthinkable Some ways that this would make any sense. But I want to play a little clip for you before we start and talking about the affluent, the mass affluent class. And this is from financial times, we’ve had some financial times reporters on the show. I like reading financial times when I’m abroad when I’m in Europe, because you just get a different perspective. You know, of course, you can consume all this content of every publication and everywhere in the world nowadays, but it didn’t used to be that way. It’s still different when you pick up the good old fashioned Financial Times newspaper, when you’re in Europe somewhere, versus reading the Wall Street Journal here in the States, right? So it’s kind of a different take on things, and I like to get some different takes. So let’s listen to these great British accents. Talk about negative interest rates for a moment.

Dan Kennedy 2:50
We’ve lived through low interest rates and zero interest rates, but investors are not sure how comfortable they feel about negative interest rates since the talk is a bank, charging people to Look after that money, so on negative interest rates going to fade and die, or get deeper and wider with me to discuss this is Peter with

Jason Hartman 3:07
so banks charging people to guard their money. I mean, think about that. That’s an almost unthinkable concept. But, you know, it has a certain amount of logic to it. Look, maybe all of you listening have a safe deposit box. And that safe deposit box, you have to pay rent on it. And you know, if you stuck your cash in the safe deposit box, which would be a terrible idea, but say you did it, you pay rent for the security of using that safe deposit box, right. So this is a similar concept, but it’s it’s pretty unusual,

Dan Kennedy 3:46
but head of investment strategy at the asset manager Vanguard, Peter, remind us why do we have negative interest rates at all? Well, the reason we have negative interest rates is the central banks in some countries fighting ISIS. salary to provide additional policy stimulus, they start by cutting rates lower and lower, and they hit zero. At that point, they can either start printing money by doing quantitative easing, or now they’re starting to move rates into negative territory as well.

Jason Hartman 4:13
So what does that mean? That’s when the central bank using the metaphor of the bullets in the gun, right, that’s when they’re out of bullets. Okay, because they’ve eased so much already. And this is why, as we’ve talked about on the show before, they try to raise rates because they got to reload. They need to reload so that they’re ready when a recession hits, you know, clearly, they don’t think they can do it. So that’s why we’re moving into this crazy, almost, it’s not totally Uncharted, but it’s almost uncharted territory of negative interest rates.

Dan Kennedy 4:47
Central Banks want us to do. Central Banks, effectively are trying to get us to spend more money because by doing that, we increase economic activity in the economy, and that pushes up inflation, which is what they want, but is it really the case of people going to be charge for these people to hold their money in their banks. And this is going to be charged for the privilege of lending to governments. It’s not quite the case, not many banks are yet charging negative deposit rates.

Jason Hartman 5:15
Think about that crazy idea the government wants to, you know, and not just the US government, any government, the government wants to borrow money from other people within its own borders, its own citizens, and foreigners, foreign institutions, foreign people, so they sell bonds, right treasury bonds, and when they sell those bonds, can you imagine paying the government for the privilege of loaning the money? I know that seems totally backwards, doesn’t it? It seems bass ackwards as the saying goes, and it is it’s a strange phenomenon. But here we are.

Dan Kennedy 5:54
And interestingly, as a result of that, that means that probably the pass through from these negative interest rates, isn’t getting through to the boring rates. So the effectiveness of these negative rates in encouraging people to spend more is probably a little bit diluted. Okay, so let’s look at our first chart, which tells us how prevalent negative interest rates are at the moment. This shows that around 30% of the the current issue issues out there for sovereign, developed market bombs are are in negative territory. Now, that’s a slight over estimate of how much government’s actually getting a good deal because of course, some of those bonds were issued, while rates was still positive. And they’ve since moved into negative territory in the secondary market, but even so, any government like Germany’s Switzerland’s going to the market now to raise money is getting a negative view, which means in effect, we’re paying them for the privilege of us giving them money. Peter, why would investors?

Jason Hartman 6:48
Wow, we pay for the privilege of giving the money

Dan Kennedy 6:52
to invest in a negative year. Let’s have a look at your second shot. Yeah, I mean, I think the really important point to remember here is Why do you have bonds in your portfolio in the first place, and you’re not holding bonds because they give you fantastic returns equities in your portfolio for that. There’s really two reasons. One, they provide you a bit of a dampener stability. But second, and most important, they provide diversification relative to equities. So what this chart shows you is that if you take the worst core title of stock market performance over the last 14 years from 2001, to 2014, so when equities fail 6% This tells you how different duration bonds apply during those same periods. And what you see is that typically, bonds will go up to counteract it. So diversification would still happen in negative. Yeah, I don’t think I mean, I think a couple of years ago, we were beginning to think that this diversification had run out of road but was still happening is that as interest rates are falling and falling, where we’re seeing that there’s almost no limit to it, but the criticism negative interest rates is being stepped up. We’ve had Larry Fink of BlackRock saying people are going to have to save for longer. It’s Correct. Yeah, I think that basic point is correct. But I think it’s mixing up two slightly different issues. I think it’s definitely the case that because we’re moving into a low interest rate world, investors are going to have to save more to to earn the same income in their retirement as they would have done a few years ago. Now, that’s partly been affected by the low interest rates and the negative interest rates that central banks are implementing at the moment, but let’s remember why central banks are doing that they’re doing that in order to try and persuade people to bring consumption forward from the future to the present. That’s just a standard thing that policymakers do during a period.

Jason Hartman 8:37
Okay, so that was kind of a key statement. By the way that rustling noise is is his suit. He’s moving his hands and making noise with his his suit is making noise and his microphone is picking that up. But what’s interesting about that is see how the central banks are right and the government’s they both want you to do this and of course, the retailer’s love it. They want you to bring future consumption. to the present day, and they’re saying by now, because that has a stimulative effect on the economy, right. And when you do that, of course, you defeat the whole concept of wealth creation, which requires capital formation. They’re saying spend for today don’t save. And how are they doing that? Well, they’re saying, if you save, you will be punished. And if you spend, you will be rewarded. So it’s an absolutely crazy backwards thing. And it creates a lot of malinvestment, I shouldn’t even call it malinvestment, I’ll call it now. spending habits, you know, it’s just bad spending habits, but it is what it is and you need to know about it.

Dan Kennedy 9:44
economy’s in a big downturn. But even when this downturn is behind us, it’s still going to be the case that returns are going to be lower going forward and people are going to have to send disable. So poor old investors are really the people that are caught in the middle here between a bad long run out And policymaker actions, just very quickly, Peter, finally, how long we’re gonna have negative interest rates. I think we’re gonna probably have them for the next year or two. Peter Wesley, thank you very much. Thank you.

Jason Hartman 10:10
Well, that’s pretty crazy. So that’s the Financial Times YouTube channel, go check it out. It’s great. I am a subscriber and learn some good stuff there. Okay, let’s get to that mass affluent economy. We were talking about this on Friday, I figured we would continue just a little bit more of this. It is truly amazing, but sad at the same time. I personally as your guide, I am a huge fan of the middle class. In any country, every country, when you don’t have a large middle class, you have a lack of stability. It is not good for society. And one of the things for the last 15 years as we’ve been dealing 100% with investors before my experience in traditional real estate that I’ve always been saying Is Look, the middle class is disappearing. And the danger that you have is you have the danger of sliding down. Right? We all have that right? The danger of sliding down the socio economic ladder, and none of us want that property right. We want to move up. So now, I don’t know what’s the best metaphor for this. For some reason, I want to say it’s like getting out of the swimming pool, right? When you get out of the swimming pool. A boat is a better metaphor. So last year, we rented a yacht. We chartered a yacht last year in Croatia for yacht week. So some friends of mine, we were on the boat and I remember when we would go for a swim in the ocean, or the GNC, I should say, we would jump in and then getting out was pretty difficult because that swim step. You know, you got to reach up there and, you know, a couple times we let the dog jump in and swim and it was really hard to get the dog out. Okay, the water she had a life jacket. Don’t worry, Coco has her own life jacket. It’s hard to reach from when you’re down in the water. And so this would be like the middle class, right, the middle class is in the water. But the handle to the swim step on the boat keeps getting higher up and harder to reach. So you want to grab that handle as soon as he can. And you want to pull yourself up as quick as you can, so you don’t get left behind. As the middle class deteriorates and is hollowed out, you want to move up, and you want to be in the upper middle class or the wealthy class. So that’s one of the key things that we help you do here by investing in the most historically proven asset class in the entire world income property, of course. So let’s learn a little bit more about the mass affluent now. Remember from Friday, this audio I’m about to play for you. This is geared toward businesses and how they need to position their price strategy and their marketing, but it has a lot to say to us as investors That’s why I want to share it with you. So here we go Continuing from Friday,

Dan Kennedy 13:04
there are two considerations that should govern your strategy dictate where you sell and who you sell to. One is comparative ability to buy. The other is comparative willingness to buy, nothing else matters more. Look at comparative ability to buy. Consider three households, the Joneses with low wage jobs combined, putting just $30,000 a year into the coffers. The Smiths with one at a good paying job the other at a low wage job combined at $65,000 a year and the barons who own a very profitable business from which they each draw a good salary and bonuses and who have significant investment income totaling $300,000 a year. All three households include two kids. What is the same about all three? The amount of money they have to spend on necessities? It goes up a little from Jones to Smith to Baron by choice, ground beef steak from the grocery store, premium steak ordered from and delivered by Omaha Steaks But basically, all three families necessities are virtually identical. The Joneses in the barons need the same amount of toilet paper use the same amount of water and electricity have to ensure their cars feed themselves and their kids pay doctor bills and so on. Again, by choice of premium quality or by having three cars instead of one, the amount spent may vary, but it will vary proportionately, the Baron household won’t spend 10 times what the Jones household spends on necessities. That means that the percentage of income spent on necessities varies a whole lot, allow for the increase in amount spend for premium choices more and bigger.

Jason Hartman 14:34
And this is one of the many reasons that generally speaking, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer As the old saying goes. And it is because inflation hurts the poor the most. When Obama, his stated goal was to increase gasoline prices. Of course, that inflation In gas prices that he was very much in favor of his stated goal as a candidate back in 2007 or eight. He said, I hope gas prices will be $7 a gallon. I think he said something to that effect. That just, it’s terrible. I mean, the example of where I used to live in Orange County, California, right, in Orange County, California, you have all these wealthy people, upper middle class people. I mean, not not all of them, but that’s certainly a good percentage. They call it orange, the Riviera, the OC, and you have these people of lower socioeconomic status, that are driving every day for their job from the Inland Empire, Riverside, San Bernardino, and they’re doing more menial jobs, lower paying jobs, but they’ve got a long commute because the old thing in real estate is drive until you qualify, right? The cost of living is so much lower in the Inland Empire than it is in or Orange County or Los Angeles, they’ve got to spend a lot of money on gasoline. And for them, it’s a big percentage of income and also car maintenance and so forth everything that goes with commuting, I mean, what is the IRS rate, it’s like 58 cents a mile. I mean, think about how significant that is. When you do that five days a week, back and forth, it’s pretty awful. And you really beat your car. And you really spend a lot of money on fuel, especially when gas prices are high. So that percentage of income issue keeps the poor down. And if you’re teetering, it makes you a lot poorer, it makes it harder for you to move up. This is the same thing I talked about when I talk about why you should make a plan to live in a low income tax state, and hopefully a lower cost of living city state. That’s because all of these things really just impact your ability to move up in the world and they don’t really make you Your life any better. If you’re going to spend money on something, hopefully it makes your life better in some way. But not always, sometimes you just spend money in it, it doesn’t make it better or even worse than that, it makes it worse. So these fixed costs overhead, that attack our wealth, they really caused the rich to get richer and the poor to get poor. Okay, so you want to empower yourself with as many tools as possible to get richer, and that’s what we do here. So let’s continue,

Dan Kennedy 17:28
say that the household basic and essential needs can be met for $25,000 a year. So that’s what the Jones has been. The Smiths spend 50% more $37,500 and the barons of splurt spending twice that $75,000 Some do. Some don’t. By the way, look at this in percentage of income terms. The Joneses spend 85% of their income on basic and essential necessities. There are few choices in this spending. The grocery cart will feature low cost film up food. brand loyalty is supplanted by coupons and sales. The trip to Walmart pretty predictable. They have only 15% of income left for you to spend flexibly on home improvements on entertainment, on recreation on elective healthcare, etc. And to save or invest as long as nothing goes wrong. They have only $4,500 for all these choices for the entire year $375 a month, one car water pump blown one furnace repair, one kid toppled out of a tree and taken to the emergency room, and a month maybe two months discretionary spending ability is erased. The Joneses that I’ve described are actually in better shape than most at the low wage bottom of our economic pyramid. Most spend 100% 110% 120% of their income just on necessities. They are in debt, stay in debt, get deeper in debt. This is why the payday loan business exists. The undesirability of aiming your businesses at the Joneses should be obvious. You have to win a war of base commodities where prices are reverse elastic, constantly pulled in and pushed down. Customers by by price often only By price, so creating quality or service superiority has little value, a lot of money extraction has to be done in a predatory way that you may find unseemly. And that is subject to disruption by Consumer Protection.

Jason Hartman 19:11
Again, look at the payday loan business, the tote the note dealer financed car business, by the way, the payday loan business. There is a fantastic documentary I watched about what a complete scam that industry is, especially by the leader in the industry. That’s what the documentary was about. I cannot remember the name of it. I’ll try and get back to you on that one, but just amazing how they would structure these quote unquote loans to charge absolutely insane interest rates, just incredible. So a lot of people prey on the poor and they prey on the lower middle class too. I’m here doing my part and getting the word out. Okay, spread the word on this stuff and try to keep this stuff at bay because it is really just pathetic how that happens.

Dan Kennedy 19:57
The furniture and big screen TV and appliance riddled with business. Selling to poor people is a grimy grinded out business. You already know you don’t want to be there or you wouldn’t have bought this book. I just want to emphatically confirm your own instincts. The Smiths spend 58% of their income on the same necessities. The Jones spend 85% of their income. The spirits have a wider margin for error and for extra choice of spending. They can be sold an expensive night out at the ball game, a Disney vacation and new school clothes for both kids. With financing they can be sold a new car or even a kitchen remodel. In dollars, they have $27,500 a year to use this way, nearly as much in discretionary spending ability as the Jones’s entire income. That’s $2,291 a month of flexible spending, saving and investing power. A blown water pump a broken furnace and emergency room bill for Tommy may take quite a bite, but there’s quite a bit left afterward. Also should the Smiths choose to live beyond their income a blessing thing for us marketers, they can get a lot more credit than the Joneses and they can serve us a lot more consumer debt. This writing the credit card debt bubble is at an all time high. In some ways a concealed cancer growing inside a seemingly vibrantly healthy economy. All bubbles burst. The question is when and exactly how now if. So, this group’s ability to spend is artificially inflated and their willingness to spend subject to abrupt disruption. When I wrote this in late 2018, interest rate increases from the Fed were happening and more threatened in reaction to a to good economy that increases interest rates and therefore minimum monthly payments on all these credit cards. It also increases monthly payments on variable rate mortgages and the costs of trading in a car. Oops. This is the danger of having your business tailor to and dependent on the Smiths. They can go sour on you with little warning, the ability and or willingness to buy rises and falls with winds and Todd

Jason Hartman 21:48
over with so he’s trying to make the case that you own a business you want to focus on the affluent because there’s more opportunity there and more stability or the mass affluent I should say not the affluent affluent The mass affluent, interesting angle right

Dan Kennedy 22:03
to you and they have no control. Now the barons, they only spend 25% of their income, covering the same basic and essential necessities that take 58% of the Smith’s income and 85% of the Jones’s income, just 25%. That means 75 cents of every dollar stays loose, no one locked in commitments in dollars. The barons have $225,000 to spend, save or invest flexibly. If they wisely split that in half, they can plow $112,000 a year into tax deferred retirement savings plans, like 401k into stocks and bonds into real estate. So that in less than 10 years, about seven years, and every seven years, they accumulate another million dollars. By comparison, the Smiths can save or invest very little, the Jones is zero. And even if the barons act that

Jason Hartman 22:53
responsibly, so remember, as I’ve talked to you about the idea that the millennial generation can Not Enter. In most cases, of course, I’m some massive stereotype. I’m talking about 80 million people, I get it, but many of them cannot enter the investor class. And he was just talking about that, you know, if you can’t enter the investor class that really limits growth opportunities over the course of 510 Hey, do your five year plan, you know, we got that contest coming up, right. More on that tomorrow. They can enter that investor class of 510 1520 years, 3040 years, massive difference in the overall financial health of one’s life.

Dan Kennedy 23:38
They still have $112,000 left over to buy all sorts of unnecessary goods and services and gifts and trips. A big fat $9,333 a month. Should the barons choose to throw all the same behavior to the wind and live beyond their means of blessing thing for us marketers. They have the ability to get a whale of a lot more credit and services than the Smiths in BIG thumbs. terms, the Joneses can handle almost no debt service and are likely maxed out with their debt. The Smiths can handle about $200,000 of consumer debt tops, but the barons can handle $1 million of debt or irresponsibly even more. Simply put, if your customers are low wage or middle wage earners, the Joneses or the Smiths, you are in very serious peril. Think of these customer populations as a place you live or you have your business in this place. Once it was a nice neighborhood with well kept homes, safe streets, salt of the earth type people gradually it changed. Homes declined in value got bought up by landlords more renders less homeowners. Soon, drug dealers were on corners with unsafe streets. Such decay rarely reverses. You have to get out you can where to go. While the middle class collapse happened and is in recovery the affluent population has studied proved resilient and reliable and even grown from 2011 to 2013. The number US households with incomes exceeding $100,000 grew by 6%. Better. The average household income among these affluence also grew by 5%. net worth also increased by 2% to an average $1.1 million. The Royal Bank of Canada’s big annual wealth report, released in June 2014, stated that the number of high net worth households with multi million dollar network rose by 11% from 2011 to 2012, and rose again by another 16% from 2012 to 2013. The wealth of those households rose as well, nominally but a 2% boost to $5 million is not chump change. Throughout the top 5% of the pyramid. There is a growing number of customers to sell to and they have growing spending capability. More recently, even more wealth has risen to the top tiers. And since Trump’s election, truly amazing things have been occurring to the benefit of the affluent corporate business and personal tax reductions, record breaking stock market gains, and with this almost unbridled opposite Muslim, if you are going to choose your customers as you can and should, why not choose ones with strong ability and willingness to buy broadly in diversified categories with price elastic decision making and imbued with optimism or if need arises resilience, consider comparative willingness to buy, obviously ability links to willingness, but there is a broader optimism versus pessimism. A Gallup poll in late 2014, showed 56% of Americans saying the economy was continuing to get worse. Only 39% said it was getting better. And NBC News poll had a whopping 70% saying the economy was headed in the wrong direction. Within these numbers, there are biases by bottom, middle or top of the pyramid. optimism about the economy and about one’s personal economy favors marketers pessimism about these things stands solidly in the way

Jason Hartman 26:50
by late 2018. And it really goes to show you also how we talk about how economics is a very relative game. If during the Great world session, for example, or the next recession, and it’s coming, okay, it’ll be here, gotta prepare for it. And we talked about that a lot. And we’ll talk about that a lot more to make sure you’re prepared and we’re all prepared. But it really goes to show you how it’s a very much a relative game. If you have a little more money to spend and a little bit more net worth, then you’re okay, you’re still going to ride out the recession and that economic cycle in good order.

Dan Kennedy 27:29
The situation reversed, holding on consumer optimism and business leadership’s optimism. We’re at record highs. It was hard for people not to feel this way. Unemployment hit a 50 year low. The stock market hit mind boggling highs and the daily economy news was virtually all positive. President Trump exuded optimism, unlike any president since reagan, and before him Kennedy. pessimism is a headwind against willingness to buy with all but those have significant affluence and enough age to view negative economic situations as temporary optimism is a tailwind that spurs a much broader demographic swath of the populations willingness to spend, it is fine to take some advantage of times of optimism, but also smart to reinvest that extra money that flows into organizing higher income and higher net worth customers. So that when the next wave of mass pessimism washes through, your business will be on higher, safer ground. A collection of Gallup, The Wall Street Journal, and other surveys and polls that I re examined when writing the new edition of this book revealed something most instructive about consumer attitudes from 2004. Good times to and through the crash of 2008. Through the slowest recovery in history, to the present boom. The greatest fluctuations, the most erratic moves from pessimism to optimism to pessimism occurred with middle income consumers. low wage earners in the working poor stayed pretty steady from pessimistic only to barely better than pessimistic through all those years until late 2016. When they began to show a significant lift of optimism. high income and high net worth people also stayed pretty steady, never dipping much below optimistic and at times. more optimistic. Those in the middle we’re most subject to big mood swings, to excess exuberance and to fear and despair. Ensure the middle income consumers are least reliable with willingness to buy. There’s a very nice neighborhood to move your business into where you can be welcomed by a growing number of consistently optimistic consumers with fat open wallets is the affluent consumer population. This book is the roadmap. It gives you the insight, information, inspiration, and practical

Jason Hartman 29:28
Alright, so I think he got the point there. There is a mass affluent class around the world, not just in the US. I mean, look at all of the wealthy Chinese, the wealthy Middle Easterners, Europe, sadly, is just descended into disaster in so many ways. But certainly there are many wealthy people in Europe and around the world. The rich are getting richer. The poor are kind of doing about the same usually government programs rescue them. Least To a large extent, but the middle class, the middle class is the class that is under attack. I’ve cited many times on the show over the years, Lou Dobbs book war on the middle class, but highly recommend that book, it’s older probably came out in like 2004. At least that’s when I discovered it. Just be prepared for this, adjust your strategy for it, understand it. And with all of this said, though, I don’t want you to think that this is something of a rental strategy. It’s not It has nothing to do with that. Because the best rental properties are still the bread and butter rental properties, the necessity housing, so no one’s going to give up their house unless they absolutely have to. And the necessity housing is critically critically important. The other side of that equation, though, is that with this booming mass affluent class and the hollowing out of the middle class You’ve got a massive amount of capital in the world, all these people who are in the investor class who are looking for assets. And remember I talked about that, Michael Milken Jeremy Siegel article years ago. am I creating wealth seminars in 2004? In 2005, I was talking about it, how there’s this looming asset shortage. And you know, I would argue that that prediction has already come true to a significant degree and will even become more true in the future. Because they don’t just want to consume. They want to consume assets, not just consumer goods and travel and things like that. But assets, they need a place to park their money. And guess what, if you own a lot of these assets, you’re going to be in great shape, those assets will appreciate in value, those rents will go up. It’s just all good. It’s all good. So go to Jason Armand Calm, check out the properties we’ve got there. But really, you got to work with an investment counselor because the properties sell too quickly. The website is not totally up to date by any means, work with an investment counselor, connect with one through Jason Hartman calm. And also, be sure you talk with your investment counselors about our brand new construction properties. In Atlanta, Georgia, we haven’t been in that market for a while because it appreciated so much. It became really really hard to find good properties there. But we’ve we’ve got some, the inventory is pretty limited. Check those out, but all of our other properties as well. So we will talk to you tomorrow. And until then, happy investing. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own and if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

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