AMA 394: Blockchain Domains, Unstoppable Domains with Matthew Gould

Jason Hartman interviews Matthew Gould of Matthew Gould talks about different domain extensions that liken themselves to early adopters of the new decentralized web. Is China launching its own digital currency with a higher transaction speed, and could this affect the dollar? Gould works to ensure that the people, not the government or the big-tech corporations, get to define the internet in the modern world.

Key Takeaways:

[2:20] People can move cryptocurrency around easier with over 50 different cryptos.

[3:30] Gould speaks on the free speech concerns online.

[6:15] What is DNS?

[8:40] Is there a modern, blockchain, free speech-oriented hosting platform?

[10:00] Who gets to define what the internet will look like in the future?

[13:00] How are tech institutions a lack of government action?

[16:45] In the 1970s, the US had the best banking system in the world, ex: settlement speed and accuracy.



AMA 393: Income Property Client Case Study Chad Hewitt

Chad Hewitt appropriately and humorously likens his scaffolding business to a short-term rental property. This Rich Dad, Poor Dad inspired investor shares his real estate story with the Hartman Network.

Key Takeaways:

[1:15] Owns a scaffolding business is quite similar to owning a short term rental company.

[2:10] Triple net leases simply mean that all expenses pass through to the tenant.

[3:30] Originally inspired by Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

[7:00] Triple net vs. individual residential real estate.

[11:20] Anyone with a decent paying job can get past the 16k barrier to entry.

[14:00] Income property is the most tax-favored asset in America because you can depreciate it.

[20:30] With a 1031-exchange, you don’t need to do the recapture when you sell a home.

[25:00] Because of the Green New Deal, the cost to develop your average apartment complex is going to go up.


Jason Hartman Quick Start

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (Libsyn)

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (iTunes)


AMA 392: Inflation’s Coming, Housing Collapse or Boom? Ken McElroy

You don’t need a booming housing industry to make money, just a good strategy. Ken poses the question, when the dust settles, which businesses will still be standing, and where will the concentration of people be? Jason Hartman predicts a strain on the housing supply in the not-so-distant future as he postulates that few will be incentivized to get rid of a home loan with such historically low-interest rates.

Key Takeaways:

[2:00] How much has life changed in the recent 10, 20 years?

[3:30] The tech companies are likely to be broken up.

[5:00] You can make money in any environment if you adjust your strategy.

[10:00] Ken’s tips on how to find deals and evaluate them.

[16:40] Definite move from retail to housing.

[22:00] There is obvious truth of an asset shortage – as in bidding against 45 other buyers.

[31:10] City/State revenue comes from Taxpayers. There is a potential for cities to file bankruptcy.

[37:45] The bubble ‘should’ve popped’ already, but ‘they’ can keep kicking the can down the road.

[41:25] “I still think there is going to be a crash; it’s just being propped up with money which is going to create inflation.” -McElroy

[43:20] Jason predicts a future strain on housing supply because of so many home purchases with historically the lowest interest rates ever.



AMA 391: Real Estate Wealth Formula with Dan Amerman

Wealth is created with compound interest, making your dollar work for you. Dan Amerman talks with Jason Hartman about understanding, The Homeowner Wealth Formula. Dan says, “one way at looking at the mortgage is that it’s a short against the dollar.” The primary question; is your home an investment?

Books: The Homeowner Wealth Formula

Key Takeaways:

Daniel Amerman

[1:30] Is your home an investment or an expense?

[3:30] How can we better understand these home price indices?

[7:10] The results of the exhaustive research are incredibly positive. Find out more.

[9:20] “One way at looking at the mortgage is that it’s a short against the dollar.” -Amerman

[14:00] The number one historically proven method for creating wealth over the centuries is compound interest. How does this relate to inflation?

[21:00] A lot of government programs are “shell games.”

[24:00] We do expect a wealth transfer from boomers to up and coming generations.


Jason Hartman Quick Start

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (Libsyn)

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (iTunes)


AMA 390: Side Hustle Nation, How to Turn Your Spare Time into $1000 a Month or More by Nick Loper

Nick Loper of Side Hustle Nation joins Jason Hartman to discuss three different business models, from sales to services, everything from knife sharpening to pooper scooping. Build a side hustle to fund your vacation or fund your next investment property. Nick Loper is host to a podcast and author of a couple of books. His creative approach to building business outside of the standard brick and mortar has inspired thousands.

Books: The Side HustleThe Progress Journal

Key Takeaways:

[0:45] Nick jokes that one of the best ways to build your side hustle is through a self-published book with extremely long subtitles.

[3:00] If you’re looking to make money quickly, with the lowest barrier to entry…

[6:30] Who hires a lawn service? Twenty years ago, only 5% hired out. Now, it’s closer to 40%.

[10:00] Podcasting still hasn’t reached its full potential.

[15:45] 500+ Online Resources?



Coronavirus Quarantine Survivor, Juanita Ingram

Jason Hartman is joined by Coronavirus Quarantine Survivor, attorney, author, and actress Juanita Ingram. They talk about Taiwan’s pandemic plan, the changes that the country has made in response to the Coronavirus, and how SARS prepared them for this situation. Juanita also shares her thoughts on the differences of culture and how Coronavirus was handled.

Announcer 0:01
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman

Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the American monetary associations podcast where we explore how monetary policy impacts the real lives of real people, and the action steps necessary to preserve wealth and enhance one’s lifestyle.

Jason Hartman 0:29
Welcome to the show. This is Jason Hartman, your host and every 10th episode, we do something kind of special kind of different. What we do is we go off topic so regardless of which show it is on the Hartman media network, whether it be one of the financial shows economics, real estate investing, a travel, longevity, all of the other topics that we have every 10th episode, we go off topic, and we explore something of general interest, something of general life success value. And so many of our listeners around the world in 164 countries have absolutely loved our 10th episode shows. So that’s what we’re gonna do today. And let’s go ahead and get to our guests with a special 10th episode show. And of course, on the next episode, we’ll be back to our regular programming. Here we go. It’s my pleasure to welcome Juanita Ingram we are going to talk about Coronavirus, quarantine survival. She’s based in Taiwan, she’s the host of where in the world is Juanita Ingram on the mommy talk live network. Juanita, welcome. How are you?

Juanita Ingram 1:39
I’m doing well. Thank you for having me.

Jason Hartman 1:41
It’s good to have you on. So we have a large swath of the entire population of planet Earth under some kind of quarantine order stay at home, at least strong suggestion? If not, if not an actual law, or mandate, what’s going on in Taiwan? I mean, you’re very close to China. You know, some call this the China virus or the Wu Han virus, right. But there are big differences in terms of the way Taiwan and China have responded to this whole thing, right?

Juanita Ingram 2:13
Absolutely. And we are in Taiwan, 84 miles outside of China, yet our numbers are relatively low. As of today, we have 322 cases, only five deaths. And that’s as of today, and I believe, around 200 plus of those cases are imported meaning just a couple of weeks ago, we were only at 45 cases. And it only went up because the majority of those cases are people that have come here from the US, UK or Europe. So they aren’t local, they’re important. And the difference in the way that we responded, as opposed to the rest of the world, really, we handle this, or started to handle this back at the end of January. So everything that all of my friends and family are experiencing over in the us right now. We were there almost 30 days ago. And of course,

Jason Hartman 3:05
just to be clear, when you say we mean the Taiwanese government, right?

Juanita Ingram 3:08
The country of Taiwan, Taiwanese government, then the residents of Taiwan, so I live here. And we went through, you know, my kids school shut for 30 days, we I didn’t leave my house, we were under sort of that strict suggestion of self quarantine, social distancing. And there’s just a big cultural difference here, as opposed to what I’m seeing in the US with family again, family and friends. I’m originally from Tennessee. So I you know, I’ve seen a lot of responses. And from my own classmates, from people that I know, people in Tennessee that are maybe on social media are in touch with you one way or another, right? Yes, absolutely. And I lived in London for almost five years before that. So I have a lens. I was actually just in London, March 2 through the 10th. So I have a lens of three continents. Right, right. Yeah.

Jason Hartman 4:04
You have a really interesting perspective. That’s fantastic. I’m just gonna ask you, how in the heck did you end up in Taiwan? That’s quite a quite a stretch from Tennessee.

Juanita Ingram 4:15
It is it is. Like I said, we lived for almost five years in London before this. I’m an I’m an attorney. And my husband is the president of the Taiwanese affiliate here for one of the pharmaceutical companies. He works for a pharmaceutical company. So his job is what brought us to London. And now it brought us to Taiwan. And so we are expats. And we are corporate expats. So we live sort of internationally because of his job, although he will say because of the things that I usually end up doing while I’m while I’m in various countries, and maybe maybe it’s my career and he’s just the vehicle that gets us there. But but it’s work related.

Jason Hartman 4:54
Yeah, yeah, good stuff. Good stuff. So tell us more. I kind of got you off topic here with them my question but Tell us more.

Juanita Ingram 5:01
Yeah, no, I just I think, you know, back in January, it was the end of Chinese New Year. And my kids were out of schools around January 25. Towards the end of the year, we were celebrating chinese new year we were actually in Malaysia, on vacation. And we heard whispers of what they call the Wu Han virus at that time. Now the Coronavirus or COVID-19. And we’d heard whispers about it, I ordered mask of at that time, just because we’d heard Well, there was this sort of SARS like virus that was coming out of that area. And by the time we got home, like his schools were canceled, you know, everyone was under this high, heavy suggested self quarantine. And I think so many people are getting caught up in like the semantics of whether it’s a shutdown or lockdown or quarantine, the bottom line is we all had to sit down. And that was the most important thing. And I think, from the lens of being in Asia and being in Taiwan, the culture here, the people, you’re very compliant. But then again, we had a lot of transparency from the Taiwanese government. I know everyone from CNN, to MSNBC, to Forbes has written about how Taiwan is sort of the blueprint for handling the Coronavirus and the response that the Taiwanese government gave, which I think obviously was brilliant. It kept a lot of people safe. Mind you, Taiwan is a country of 23 million in population. So it’s about the size of Texas, in population in numbers, but in a very condensed area. So the fact that we only have 322 cases, even today is amazing.

Jason Hartman 6:34
Okay, and tell us, you’re pleased with the response of your government there. But tell us more about what that means. What did they do? So right, they acted quickly. It sounds like that’s, that’s one thing right?

Juanita Ingram 6:48
Very quickly. And mind you now they had experience with SARS. So this is you know, they had a pandemic sort of center in place. They did a lot of temperature checks, immediately, schools were shut for almost a month, I think was a little under a month, because February is a short month. So then almost the entire month of February, toward the end of January schools were shut. We had social distancing, there was no movement is separate central travel. So while grocery stores remain open, you couldn’t enter without wearing a mask without having your temperature checked. There were testings that were done, and just a lot of communication with the public. They did things to keep from having panic buying. So there were caps that were put on essential things like hand sanitizer, toilet paper, you could only buy two at a time just to keep people from panic buying. So that there would be enough for everyone. In the early days. In the first couple of weeks. They ration and took all the mask in the country, and ration them out to those who had residency cards or citizens that were here, and everyone received to every seven days. So if you had a residency card, or your passport, or your health insurance card, you could get to mask everything every seven days for everyone in your household. And even now, they switched to sort of an online ordering service where the amount is about 16 cents per mask. And so very affordable. They made sure that everyone had the essentials, again to control the panic. But they’re constantly in communication about where the numbers are, what the nature of the virus is, I received almost like amber alerts on my cell phone because I have a Taiwanese number, and everyone that has that we receive these text messages where, you know, certain areas were strictly quarantine because there was a case of someone who had been there, or who had received a positive test result. And these were the places that they visited. I mean, it was very transparent, so that you were equipped to make the right decisions. I think sometimes what I’m seeing in the US with a lot with my family and with friends, not just in Tennessee, but everywhere. Because I lived in Indiana for almost 17 years before we moved to London. And now and now Taiwan, I think everyone is it took a while for people to take it seriously. It took a while for people to believe that social distancing was even necessary, that it was something that was going to work. And I think there’s just a lot of unknown about, okay, well, two weeks or 30 days from now, When is that going to look like and I think Taiwan is a perfect example of where that’s done. And it is successful. Mind you, our numbers are going to continue to peak and continue to rise as the world continues to deal with us. So we had a hold on everything until it hit the US and hit Europe and hit the UK. And it was sort of not under control. So for a while we only had 4547 cases. And then we saw the import of hundreds almost almost 200 cases, maybe a little bit more than that all imported. And so I think, for me, I wanted people to know the importance of recognizing that whether you live in the US whether you’ve never moved, whether you live in your own town, we’re all global citizens. And everything that we do and choose to do impacts everyone all over the world that Oh,

Jason Hartman 10:21
no, no, that’s one of the really, I don’t mean for this to sound wrong. But one of the neat things that’s come out of this, you know, because it’s a virus, it affects everybody. And the only way we can stop it is to work together. You know, maybe this is a lesson from our Creator, that we got to figure out how to work together as a global community. And you know, this, this might be a hard lesson for us to learn, right. But it’s, it’s really, you know, it’s just ingrained in, in the way this kind of thing works, that that’s what we have to do. And there’s no other way.

Juanita Ingram 10:57
Absolutely, I totally agree. And I think that is, like you said, it’s a weird takeaway, but if there is a positive to it, there are many positives,

Jason Hartman 11:06
but yeah, yes,

Juanita Ingram 11:07
yeah. But if there are positives that take away, it is the idea that people can now see that, you know, we have to stray away from the individual mindset to the collective whole. And I think that is something from a cultural perspective that is so different, maybe a little easier and more inherent in Asian cultures, as opposed to other cultures. But I do think that it’s something that if we’re going to survive it, and get and get past it, you know, I was talking to one of my friends that I went to school with, and they were saying, Oh, well, you know, I just don’t want to stay inside, I’ve got things to do. I wanted to go to this, and I had plans for spring break. And guess what,

Jason Hartman 11:47
that’s not just you, you’re affecting, if it were just you naturally, you know, listen, if, if nobody’s paying for your health care, and you know, and you want to go on a motorcycle with no helmet and hurt or kill yourself, maybe that should be your choice. But when other people have to suffer consequences of your actions, then it’s not your choice anymore.

Juanita Ingram 12:09
Absolutely. And so when I came out of that sort of 30 days, then I honestly, we were in such a great place, you know, we had no travel bans, it hadn’t hit the wave of the UK or us. But as soon as it did, because of choices that people were making, and the lack of sort of taking it serious, my children’s school went on a second bout, like right now they’re out of school, again, schools here are shut, we had to do sort of a second wave of trying to make sure that we contain it, because again, we live in a very transient community, people are coming and going from all over the world. And the choices that you make individually is your right is not about you anymore. And I think it was just very hard for people to believe that this was as serious as it is, even though if you just pick your head up and look at what’s going on all over the world or in other places in the world. You know, I was posting on on Facebook about it. And it was almost as though people were calling me a liar that it wasn’t happening. Because it wasn’t in their backyard. It wasn’t at their door yet. Yeah, it was it

Jason Hartman 13:15
has exponential potential. So it’s, it’s a lot different than, than, than other issues like the flu, because it’s more contagious. And not only more contagious, it’s asymptomatic, which means it’s stealthy. And even if people do the right thing and self quarantine, they don’t know. That’s That’s the problem. It’s like a it’s like a stealth fighter jet. You don’t know it’s okay.

Juanita Ingram 13:41
Yes, is it long incubation period. And, you know, you can be fine for four days, and still test positive. I have two friends right now, husband and wife duo in Atlanta, who are doctors, er doctors, and they both tested positive, the husband is very sick, the wife has zero symptoms. And only tested because he tested positive, mind you, they’re on the frontlines. It was through, you know, patient exposure. And, you know, it’s one of those things where it is affecting everyone so differently. She has zero symptoms, doubt if she would have ever even gotten tested, but for the fact that her husband had symptoms, so it is very different. Very unique in that regard.

Jason Hartman 14:23
Okay. All right. What else do you want people to know?

Juanita Ingram 14:26
Well, I want people to know, that self quarantine, self distancing. All of these things are to be taken very seriously, I know is a very hard thing to do. I know it’s very challenging. And the first time I put a mask on because it’s not then in the natural culture of things in the US, but the first time I wore a mask and had to go outside. I had a small panic attack because I have asthma. And it made me feel like I couldn’t breathe. I live in downtown Taiwan, and Taipei, and it was so steel. I mean, you couldn’t even hear it. There were no cars on the street. It just seemed like something out. Have a movie set. And it was fear inducing. And so I wrote a book recently called panic over peace over panic, and how to find peace in the midst of chaos, in the midst of a panic because I’ve been through that first 30 days. And I know, I was reading all of these posts online, and I understood and I understood what people felt like. And I knew that feeling, but also knew the piece that could come from getting on the other side. There were a lot of scriptures that I read that I use, that helped bring me to a place of peace, I give a lot of suggestions in there about activities that you can do for self care for making sure that you still feel sane, while self quarantine, and then a lot of activities. So is 14 is a 14 day workbook. And each day you get an activity for yourself, for self care, you get a scripture to help you sort of push away the fear. And then you get activity to do with the kids because I am a mom, I have two children, my son’s in the fifth grade, my daughter’s in the seventh grade. And you know, when kids are out of school, your routine is sort of thrown up in the air. And sometimes it’s very hard to know what can you do with kids on quarantine. So I wanted to give those type of tips also hope and inspiration to people to know that it does work it is going to take time unfortunately every country will be affected differently because every response in every country is different. But given time it the curve does flatten.

Jason Hartman 16:31
Okay good. Good to know where can they get your book?

Juanita Ingram 16:34
Sure it is available for download at www dot i am Juanita and the donation for the book. It’s actually going to help Dress for Success Greater London and dress for success Chattanooga which are charities that help unemployed women get back into the workplace. We give them interview clothing and interview attire and it’s all for free. So the donation is a win-win the donation that they give for the book goes to help underprivileged women who will need our services undoubtedly when we all come out on the other side of this.

Jason Hartman 17:07
Okay, Juanita, thank you so much for joining us.

Juanita Ingram 17:10
Thank you for having me.

Jason Hartman 17:17
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are the rain. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

The Altucher Report, COVID-19 Population Migration, Talking Stocks

Jason Hartman’s guest in this episode is James Altucher. To start the show, they compared the severity of the pandemic from those living in New York and New Jersey to the rest of the nation. Then they talk about the economy, stimulus, SPY, and RVT, and why we should prepare for supply shock. Jason and James also discuss James’ preferences on stocks and his 40 alternatives to college.

Announcer 0:01
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman

Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the American monetary associations podcast where we explore how monetary policy impacts the real lives of real people. And the action steps necessary to preserve wealth and enhance one’s lifestyle.

Jason Hartman 0:30
Hey, it’s my pleasure to welcome a returning guests back to the show. And that is James all toucher. When he was on a couple of years ago, we had a great conversation about his book at the time, a concept I very much support, which is choose yourself. And since then, he’s developed a huge podcast following the ultra show. He’s a former hedge fund manager knows a lot about the economy. And he’s been looking into the epidemiology of the COVID-19 situation. He also lives in New York City. You know, he’s the author of a bunch of books, I won’t even go through all the titles, but there’s, there’s so many he’s prolific. Anyway, it’s great to have James altucher. Back on the show, James, how you doing?

James Altucher 1:09
Jason? Thanks so much. Thanks for having me back on and I super appreciate it. It’s, it’s too bad. It’s It’s such unfortunate circumstances that bring us back together on the show, but it is what it is.

Jason Hartman 1:21
Yeah, it is what it is. That’s for sure. But you know, there’s a lot of opportunities right now to and whenever there’s a crisis, you know, like the Chinese say, crisis and opportunity are the same thing. Their thing is literally translated crisis is opportunity riding the dangerous wind? It’s kind of interesting. I didn’t know that. Yeah.

James Altucher 1:40
Is that like the same ancient curse? May you live in interesting times? Because it’s, that’s a little different.

Jason Hartman 1:45
But they used to say that a lot during the Great Recession, for sure. And so these are interesting times, you know, being in New York City, man, you are, you’re just on the forefront of it. So tell us kind of the big picture of what’s going on what you’re thinking, what you’re interviewing a lot of people just what’s the Zeitgeist in the in the James altucher world right now?

James Altucher 2:06
Yeah, it’s interesting. You bring up New York City, in that between New York City and New Jersey, those two areas alone are more cases and sadly, deaths than the other 48 states combined. So my view when I hear the news, and when I walk out and see what’s happening on the street, I imagine it’s probably very different from, you know, somebody from other parts of the country where maybe the shutdown is not as restrictive or maybe there’s just not as many cases or not as many deaths. Like, you know, you take Georgia, for instance, right next to Florida, which is a reopening or reopening a big portion of their economy today. And they’ve had, what 800 deaths out of a population of 10 million, Georgia itself has an economy in the 10s of billions. So, you know, it’s a different perspective. Here everyone is, I just feel this atmosphere of anxiety and fear and stress and nobody wants to read, he’s locked down. And there was all these panicky headlines weeks ago. Oh, the hospitals were about to get overrun. So Trump said the, what is it the USS comfort that Javits Center got turned into a hospital, the I myself visited the 10 hospitals on Central Park, just to just to see what’s going on, they were empty, all of these places were empty, they never did overwhelm the hospital system.

Jason Hartman 3:30
That’s great. So they flattened the curve in time that we didn’t overwhelm the hospitals. And interestingly, you say that, James, because being in New York, certainly you know, about the conspiracy theories that are starting to float like crazy. And, you know, one is where they’re getting people to crowdsource video of hospitals in their neighborhoods. Right. And, and you see, like these, you know, barricades set up for people to get in line, and nobody’s there. Now, I don’t know how real or fake this stuff is. I just know it’s interesting. thoughts. Yeah, I

James Altucher 4:02
mean, before the peak, I went out to do a little bit of that crowdsourcing myself just to see what’s going on. Yep. There was nobody anywhere. And I spoke to people who were coming in and out of the hospital, I spoke to doctors, I spoke to priests who are coming in and out. And like, thank God, I’m not I’m not even saying like, I see you were wrong. It’s nothing. like okay, they took a worst case scenario, and they wanted to be cautious and every precaution and that’s good. But I do think though, this speaks to the larger issue of we made, and I say we the the government and the population made a huge, huge, trillion dollar multi trillion dollar decisions off of mathematical models, that not once were correct. They weren’t even close to correct, right. Like back in January, early February. There were newspaper articles saying around the world. 140 million people might die. That was The first article I ever saw about this, and then, you know, I get a report out of either Imperial or Harvard or both that said there would be millions of deaths in the US. And, you know, up to 10 million deaths in the US was the first number I heard. And then it got kept coming down, kept coming down. And every single model was wrong. March 25, I, ah, me came out with a model that said, there would be 60,000 hospitalizations in New York City alone, by April 1, just six days later, well, six days later, there were 12,000 hospitalizations, they were 80% off and the model they had made just six days earlier. And these were all the scientists we were relying on to make multi trillion dollar decisions about shutting down people’s livelihoods and careers and and you know, all the deaths and stress and collateral fatalities that ended up resulting, you know, if you have if you’re in stage three, liver cancer, and you wanted to see if you had stage four, that was considered an elective procedure, so you couldn’t do it. So you still can’t do it. So this is creating a problem for the entire system. And everyone will say, oh, you’re choosing the stock market over your grandma’s life, right? No, that’s not it at all. Like people are suffering like there’s calls to the Bronx offer child abuse hotlines are six times higher. You know,

Jason Hartman 6:16
even Indiana suicide hotlines are 800% higher for suicide hotlines.

James Altucher 6:22
It’s It’s insane. So I really just who knows what the right decision was, but, you know, everybody was scared. But I wish the media hadn’t fanned the flames of that hysteria, because hysteria now is turning into history. And, you know, hopefully we climb out of this. But But yeah, so that’s a long answer. But also in terms of the economy, I think, you know, we’re going from a period of great uncertainty to a little bit more certainty, which is that the economy will reopen the stimulus packages now to have been passed, plus the Federal Reserve’s stimulus, and the virus seems to have peaked in the US. And maybe they’ll be a segue, maybe not, that’s part of the unknowns. But we know some things now for certain that we didn’t know even like three or four weeks ago. So that’s a good thing. But now going into this new abnormal, I’ll call it is there’s a lot of uncertainty, too, which is what industries will collapse, because there’s going to be a few. And, you know, we don’t know about the second wave of the virus. But now that we have a lot of data about the virus, hopefully we can say, Well, okay, we don’t have to shut down the entire economy this time. And we’ll see. But, you know, there’s definitely been a lot of interesting data about the economy.

Jason Hartman 7:31
Yeah, no question about it. You know, I mean, going forward, first off, what type of recovery Do you think it’ll be? And before you answer, I’ll tell you what I think. So, you know, we’ve all heard, is it going to be a V shaped recovery? That’s the hopeful picture, is it going to be a you with a big ugly trough? Is it going to be an L shaped recovery, I think it’s going to be kind of like a modified square root sign, meaning that the square root sign, usually, you know, it goes down, then it goes up higher, I think this one’s going to be down, it’s going to be down in the V, and then up, but lower than the start. I think this is a lasting issue, you know, it’s going to have a huge hangover on the economy. And I think the economy is going to shrink, I think there’s going to be a form of PTSD, I hate to say, where travel isn’t going to resume, it’s going to be a slow slog to get back to the new normal. I mean, there’s certainly been a lot of opportunities. I’m not being like, negative, I just think there’s, you know, there’s always a lot of repositioning, right when, when something like this happens, but your thought,

James Altucher 8:42
I mean, look, this is a bigger disaster than and I’m not even talking about the pandemic, the economic shutdown is a bigger disaster than what happened in the economy after 911. What happened in the economy after 2008 2009, which was a pretty big disaster, by the way, I mean, no question. The financial system collapsed. And they had to bail it out. There was no cash left, and they had to put cash into the system. And 911 the country feared it was under attack. And certainly things were affected permanently like like travel and and airports and our relationships with the Middle East and so on. And banking kind of changed forever after 2008 2009. I mean, it was

Jason Hartman 9:21
bad. If you walk into a bank now, with a couple million bucks, instead of saying, Hey, you know, we’re glad to have you. And by the way, here’s your free toaster. It’s like, oh, we’re suspicious. You might be a terrorist or money launderer. It’s just totally the Patriot Act is, you know, the know your customers. It’s just changed everything.

James Altucher 9:40

Jason Hartman 9:41
It’s like, later on, you know,

James Altucher 9:43
yeah. And a lot of things are gonna change now. And I think some of them we could probably guess about and some of them, we can’t, but, you know, it’s funny, just debate of the different shapes. I think I’m more in your camp about how I see more of a W than a V, right. So you know, We go up a little, which is what’s already happened, we’re kind of like at the peak of the W, and then we’re gonna have to go down again, because as long as you keep seeing insanity happen, then those are all canaries in the coal mine. So like what happened with the oil futures contracts two days ago going negative, that’s never happened before. That’s a little bit of insanity. Like I even see experts being quoted newspaper articles, talking about, oh, the physical delivery of oil, nobody wants to take your oil. These were cash settled contracts, there was no oil involved. It was just, it was just a big, insane thing that happened. But as long as there’s insanity happening, there’s no way that we have the enough certainty in the market to just go straight up from here, no matter what the stimulus does. Second, the stimulus is hitting, but there’s nothing to hit the economy now is a is like a patient on life support. This is a band aid at best, and you have to have a living patient that’s walking around before the stimulus can work. So we don’t quite know, for sure, we know what’s going to happen that the economy is gonna wake up, but we don’t know when and then what how many phases.

Jason Hartman 11:04
And by the way, if I just keep your thought there, please don’t don’t forget. But what you’re kind of referring to is when we’ve been talking a lot about this rare malady of supply demand shock, you know, which sort of was pronounced in the 70s. And so we’ve seen demand destruction, obviously. But I think we’re gonna see supply destruction too, because for example, oil is a, you know, a great example, right? Look at this prediction, and maybe totally wrong, of course. But, you know, now we have demand destruction. And there’s like, gluts of oil and oils cheap. And, you know, they’re, they’re having tankers store oil, that they’re not moving the oil, they’re just storing the oil, right? It’s a totally weird situation. But now these oil companies go out of business. And when things do recover, there’s a lot less supply. So same with the airlines, like I did, I did a Google flights search today. And I’ve been looking at flights just interesting. I don’t want to go anywhere. I’m just doing it as a study, sir. And, and to go, I live in Palm Beach, Florida. So to go from Miami to LA x, which is like an easy route, you know, take a direct flight. It’s really expensive. In fact, looking at the chart on Google flights of the last 6075 days, it’s at the highest price it’s been. And if you looked, if you looked at just three weeks ago for that flight, it was dirt cheap, okay, four or five weeks ago, cheap, right? Because you have lots of supply and no demand. And now that the airplane the airlines have grounded a lot of their flights and canceled the routes, you have, you know, a small amount of demand, but a lot less supply, too. So it sounded like you were sort of alluding to that. And I just wanted to bring that out as a discussion point.

James Altucher 12:50
Yeah, I mean, with oil like so I

Jason Hartman 12:52
and not oil in particular, just generally widgets, but oil is an example. Go ahead. Yeah.

James Altucher 12:58
Yeah, I mean, I think I think because it’s such a weird thing. This, this lack of demand is not based on where the economy was heading a few months ago, it’s it’s this forced lack of demand, because we’re all being told to stay at home, which I’m not questioning in one way or the other. That’s not what this is about. But so I own part of a private oil company, and we just stopped producing the oil, like, we realized there’s not going to be any demand. And there was no reason to pump more oil out. And we’ll start pumping again, when there’s demand, I think that’s what most oil companies are going to be doing. So it’s, I don’t know, if the oil companies are gonna go out of business someplace as well, like, you know, the average small business like a restaurant only had 16 days of cash in the bank, they might not have gotten their small business loans. Hardly any small businesses actually got the small business loans. Yeah, a lot of storefront businesses are gonna go out of business, a lot of small mom and pop businesses, sadly, are gonna go out of business. I don’t know how you really avoid that they’re trying to, I mean, the premise of the $2.2 trillion stimulus package and then an additional 450 billion as of yesterday, the premise is that two and a half trillion dollars of money is not going to be spent this quarter. So that’s what they’ve calculated, you know, give us that number. Again. It’s what well, like every quarter, yeah, the GDP of a quarter GDP of a year is about $20 trillion. Every quarter, that’s 5 trillion. And they kind of think there’s about 40 to 50%. Yeah, so and this is the government This is what I’m getting. This was on my podcast with the I had on my podcast the other day, the deputy chairman of the St. Louis Federal Reserve, so he was telling me his reasoning is that between two and 3 trillion would be withdrawn from the economy because we’re all not spending money while in our houses. And so they created two to $3 trillion of stimulus. And so it’s supposedly going to replace what we lost in terms of money. But again, all that stimulus is gonna end up just sitting in a bank. And so the velocity of money needs an economy to be flourishing, otherwise, people Spend, they just keep the money in the bank, and the money doesn’t have the intended effect on the economy. So to your point, you could put, you’d have to put in five or 6 trillion, if economy’s truly gonna slow down, you have to put in trillions more to make up the same amount that last year’s 2 trillion was. So the point is, is that if if we do have this PTSD, then you’re right, we’re going to see much more of a slowdown in the data in q3 and q4 than we expected, it won’t be the V shaped surge that some economists and government officials are predicting. Now. We don’t really know, though. I mean, the one One theory is like you said, we’re gonna have this PTSD. We’re not, we’re going to realize you don’t need to go out as much we’re gonna enjoy staying at home. On the other hand, it’s sort of like, we’re drug addicts, and we were addicted to the economy and spending money. And now we’re in drug rehab. Yeah, definitely in drug rehab to put it. Typically, in drug rehab, we stopped using drugs. And but then when we get out of rehab, we start hanging out with our old friends that go in our old Hangouts. And we start using again we relax. Yeah, right. So So theoretically, we could relapse. Also, I think this is one of the uncertain things. I could say, Now, I’m never getting on a plane again, or I’m never going to a restaurant again. But when I can, and my wife wants to go to a restaurant, I’ll do it. I’m not and I own, I actually own a bar. So I hope people return to bars, but we’ll see a dirty, disgusting petri dish of disease like a bar, right? Like the bar I own at least Yeah, and but I think it’s an unknown, and we’ll see. But I’m more inclined to think just the mechanics of it is more like a W. And although I do think the stimulus will be enough, not necessarily the short term stimulus that Congress is passing, although that will help. But the Federal Reserve stimulus, which is cutting the interest rates, buying mortgage backed securities, buying corporate debt, that’s gonna that that’s almost going to be forced to lift the economy. But people don’t realize federal stimulus, even this extreme doesn’t kick in for a good six to 12 months, at least. Yeah, so we’ve got a while before that kicks in.

Jason Hartman 17:06
So we’ll say you made a great metaphor there of the patient that’s on life support, right? And so, you know, you can pump money, but pumping money, you know, it doesn’t solve every problem. It’s it’s the usual tool that the Federal Reserve goes to, it’s there, it’s the sort of their go to thing, you know, in fact, it’s just funny 911, you know, great recession. Now, you know, whenever you have like a g7 meeting, the whole thing is like, How much money do we pump into the system? Right? That’s always that’s always the solution. But in this case, it doesn’t totally, it’s not the panacea, it is sometimes, right,

James Altucher 17:46
right. Like in 2000. Basically, we’re following the playbook of 2009 2008 2009. So the Federal Reserve over the past two, three decades has gotten a lot more sophisticated about the ways they can help the economy so so back in the 90s, Alan Greenspan would just cut rates, and that would do it after 911, there were some stimulus checks, and there was mostly just cutting rates. But after 2008 2009, it wasn’t just cutting rates, it was also encouraging banks to have excess reserves by raising the interest rates that the Fed would pay banks on those excess excess reserves. It was they started buying, you know, mortgage backed securities and going out a little bit further than just treasury bills. And they’re doing more of that. Now. They’re doing the same, but more now. And, again, you’re right. if nobody’s buying goods, it does nothing to help the guy. It does. Zero. Yeah. So somebody has the economy has to move first. And is this stimulus enough? Are the right people getting it? Was this the right macro economic theory? I don’t know. This is a giant experiment. 2 trillion just like to replace spending? I don’t know if that we’ll see if it works. I mean, it’s probably better than nothing. And then you have we have massive deflation right now on some things, but like you pointed out, depending on how the how efficient the industry is, that might be inflation. And then, of course, structurally, does all this increase in dollars result in inflation? It’s unclear right now. The rest of the world buys our dollars. And that’s a deflationary pressure. But I do think specifically, you’re gonna see things like commercial real estate has to have a mini financial crisis after this. We weren’t going to go. I mean,

Jason Hartman 19:25
you’re saying many, I think it’s going to be a maxi crisis.

James Altucher 19:29
Right? I I guess I agree. I’m just using the word being optimistic.

Jason Hartman 19:33

James Altucher 19:34
It’s like, I don’t want to say to my wife, why don’t you get the maxi pads instead of a mini like, like, don’t do that, like, but yeah, I mean, what’s gonna happen when we work goes out of business, which is 100% chance, right? Right. Like the average they’re the biggest real estate renter for commercial real estate in New York City and other cities. So if you have a building and suddenly eight floors or your renter just disappears, right? And you got to clean it

Jason Hartman 19:58
out. Find another renter, and they We work was already a scam. You know before this Oh yeah. That was a smart decision. So poor Adam Newman he’s only going to be a millionaire not a billionaire. Yeah, he

James Altucher 20:12
pulled out like 700 million so he’ll he’ll he’ll survive. But I don’t know if he could feed his kids in a few years, but we’ll see. But what are all these real estate commercial real estate companies going to do? They live on borrowed money, and now borrow time and they’re not going to survive. It’s the entire industry is going to change. Airlines, despite a bailout are probably going to go out of business cruise lines. I don’t know if Las Vegas is going to be able to stay in business. Are you going to Las Vegas anytime soon after this? like would you even slam that?

Jason Hartman 20:41
That’s the PTSD kind of concept that I’m talking about? Like, yeah, you know, I mean, this may sound weird, but, and I don’t mean to minimize the quarantines and the depressive effect it’s having on on people’s psychology. But personally, for a guy who jumped on a plane two, three times a month. I love it. I just love not owning an airline ticket, having no plans. I’m enjoying this time of just being a homebody, I actually really quite like it. I know, there’s lots of this everywhere. You know what? Well, they drive to the beach. Yeah, I’m in Palm Beach, Florida. So they just reopened the beaches and I have not been yet. I don’t know why they closed them in the first place. I can see closing them down for spring break parties and stuff. Sure. But just a regular beach. That’s not part of the scene. That seems sort of silly to me that they closed.

James Altucher 21:31
Yeah. And look, there’s a lot of evidence that vitamin D and then the sunshine help you get the virus, and kids need to go outside and run around and

Jason Hartman 21:40
play question. No question. You

James Altucher 21:42
know, Central Park here is is I don’t want to say it’s crowded. But there’s a lot of people there even right this moment, and there’s appropriate social distancing, and masks

Jason Hartman 21:50
and so on, as long as people are doing the thing, right. But what I meant to say by that is that is part of the PTSD concept. I think people will get used to and maybe be okay, with a little bit of a simpler life. I admit that right after this is over. It’s kind of like, if you live in a place with inclement weather a lot, the first sunny day, everybody’s out, right? And you know, like, your wife wants to go to a restaurant. Sure I get it. But after a while, I think the new normal will be like a lessening of the demand for that, you know, fewer trips, fewer cruises, fewer restaurants, fewer bars, you know, I mean, people still do it. I just don’t think it’ll be as often.

James Altucher 22:34
Yeah, that could be like look at after 2009. I bet you if we did a Google trend search on minimalism, I you know, and then and then you had the whole Greek Kondo thing and so on. I bet you minimalism really became in vogue after 2009 kind of the, not that it was the death of consumerism, but it was a sickness. And probably a similar thing will happen here. And I think what I’m seeing when I talk to people and who knows if it sticks is that the whole kind of lifestyle influencer, you see on Instagram and takes like, I feel like that’s over and people now are looking for more Mental Health Solutions, stress solutions, spiritual solutions, and how does that translate into the economy? Look, there’s definitely gonna be some cheap stocks out there. Like we’re talking right now over the internet. And bandwidth has increased so much that companies like Netflix and YouTube are saying we’re gonna decrease the bandwidth quality or the bandwidth needs of our videos for a short time because there’s so much demand now,

Jason Hartman 23:34
they did that in Italy, when that first day when the quarantine first happened there.

James Altucher 23:39
Yeah, yeah. And so chipset help for bandwidth or chips that help for gaming or virtual reality, those are gonna skyrocket. And, of course, Amazon’s always gonna do well, Google’s always gonna do well, you know, tech companies will do well, oil companies will bounce back because there will be demand again, for you know, oil fuels, so much of the world economy is you know, even going back to a $30 oil price or $40 oil price, you know, which will happen within a year or two easily, particularly with this stimulus. Well, you know, you have companies like shell Royal Dutch Shell, which have gone from 66 to 32 during this crisis pays a 10% dividend those company and they’re not cutting their dividend anytime soon, right?

Jason Hartman 24:17
Those companies are gonna exist James share your hot stock tips. I almost bought Carnival cruises when it got really cheap. I mean, maybe it still is, but that’s a real risky one, but Exxon’s cheap I mean I’m not even a wall street guy. I like real estate. I think income property is the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. I love that he’s but but you know, I’m actually getting I’m getting greedy I’m getting tempted on the stock market. So So fire away with a couple of tips. So you like shell?

James Altucher 24:48
Yeah, I like shell and you know, again, I think the market as a whole if you want to take a risk. Don’t buy you know, spiders spy which is this ETF that rubber The s&p 500 represents the overall market, I like RVT a little bit better. It’s the Royce value trust, it also represents the entire market, but it’s a closed end fund. So it trades at a significant discount to the assets that I own. So it’s like buying the market at a discount. And because of the current volatility, they’re at a larger than normal discount. So you get the upside of the discount closing. It’s a little bit in the weeds here. But RVT is a better way to buy the whole market is what I’m saying. I like there’s a drone company, AV AV, and drones are going to do good. They’re already testing out drones for delivery now, like anything that was gonna happen in 10 years is gonna happen tomorrow. You know, that’s,

Jason Hartman 25:38
that’s interesting. You say that? Because, you know, one of my favorite economists is Joseph Schumpeter, right? creative destruction. Yeah. And what any crisis does, since Necessity is the mother of invention, is it just brings the future closer to us. We had all the online tools. We had zoom, we had Skype before, but now everybody’s been forced to use them. Even people that really resisted that, you know, a bunch of the mastermind groups I’m in, for example, you know, they’re doing zoom meetings. And I’m thinking, do we really after this is over, do we really need to meet in person again, it’s so much easier to just have a zoom meeting right?

James Altucher 26:14
Now I used to I agree, like, I used to do all my podcasts in person for years and years until this lockdown, right. And now I’m loving doing the podcast remotely, not because I don’t want to see people in person. But it allows me to prepare right up until the very last minute, I don’t have to go anywhere. I could say it’s easier for me to take notes during the podcast, podcasts are just as high quality, it’s easy for me to book guests, actually, because they don’t have to be in the city. Right. So and it shows me I don’t have to be in the city. either. I can be anywhere. Yeah. So yeah, I do think things are gonna change. I do think the stimulus eventually will work. And so I’m hoping we see a mini surge in q3 q4, of this year. And then in 2021, I’m hoping we see the big surge as people finally, you know, start buying real estate again, or start traveling more again. But, you know, I do think there’s too much uncertainty at the moment. And all of there are bargains, I probably wouldn’t dive in. By the way, you know, what’s been interesting, too, is law enforcement. So, in England, there’s been a surge of knife attacks against police, because there’s a little bit of social unrest. And I shouldn’t just say I should say, all countries in the US

Jason Hartman 27:23
or anywhere they have gun control, you get more knife attacks, you know, so right. And

James Altucher 27:27
then there’s a little bit more social unrest right now. And I don’t know, I think, you know, any search that right now I’m out of the markets, completely, I own one stock. So I’m just, I’m not recommending this stock. I’m biased. Which one? So it’s called rap technologies, wr TC, and they introduced a non lethal weapon. And, you know, I don’t really know anything more than anyone about it. But it’s the one stock I own, because I do think the world is moving towards, you know, non lethal police forces for a solution. No, you know, police officers don’t want to wake up in the morning and say, today’s the day I shoot somebody, I really want an alternative between beating someone up and shooting someone and this this rap technologies as a weapon or a device that wraps a cable around you at the speed of sound. And you can’t move it just like Batman. And people, states and countries and governments need need something like this. Yeah. Oh, the one thing I own is I feel economy independent. There’s always going to be a police force, and security guards for stores and so on. And so that’s the one thing I want, but I am looking at drone companies like AV AV, I robot IR bt, and video, the chip maker NVDA, how Alto Networks, whatever their symbol is, I forget Royal Dutch Shell on the oil side, you know, and then I’m just seeing if there’s I don’t, I’m curious what you think I don’t really see any deep deep value stocks yet also, which makes me nervous. Yeah, I

Jason Hartman 28:51
don’t. I’m not thinking like it’s totally time to dive into everything yet. But again, I’m not a stock expert. But I do want to ask you about this. So last week, I interviewed Dottie Herman, the CEO of Douglas, Elliman real estate on the show. And of course, she’s a New Yorker like you she was in the Hamptons when we did the interview. And we talked about money. She’s not

James Altucher 29:12
a New Yorker, by the way. Everybody, everybody says they’re a New Yorker and they all went to the Hamptons, and I’m an I’m a New Yorker. New York City. I’m a New Yorker. I’m right across the street from my bar. I’m here with with the gang. You’re there.

Jason Hartman 29:31
You’re the real deal. Stick it out. Okay. All right.

James Altucher 29:34
All right here.

Jason Hartman 29:34
Yeah. Good deal. So anyway, um,

James Altucher 29:38
he said, Well,

Jason Hartman 29:39
I asked her about my theory that after the lockdowns, lift, will there be a mass migration from high density to low density living. And, you know, again, it could be just 10% of the people that live in high density areas and high density density. By not just New York City, but by anything where you’re typically living in a five storey or more building where you’re forced to take an elevator, and you’re you’re very likely to be using mass transit. Okay. Um, you know, even after there’s a vaccine, better treatments, whatever, I think there is going to be kind of a PTSD a sort of suspicious nature with people that, hey, you know, maybe there’s going to be another virus, you know, there’s, What’s the next one? Will it be SARS again? Will it be, you know, Hey, remember, you know, now everybody’s suddenly watching and learning about the Spanish Flu back in 1918. So, will there be this mass migration like that? And interestingly, she has a self interest. She runs a big New York real estate brokerage, and she says, I think people are moving. I guess on one side, you get a lot of listings, but ultimately, you want people moving into your market to make money long term.

James Altucher 30:56
Well, don’t forget, she sells also in I mean, Douglas, Elliman that the company sells in, or represents people in Westchester, the Hamptons,

Jason Hartman 31:04
New Jersey, the summer, it’s suburbia. Yeah, got it.

James Altucher 31:07
So she she benefits either way. But it’s interesting. She says that. I agree, though, because who’s gonna come out of this day one and say, You know what, I’m gonna finally move to New York City, you’re like, I don’t care, they might have a second wave, and they’ll shut down the whole economy again, and maybe there’ll be riots in the streets. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna buy and, and furthermore, no one’s gonna say, I can’t wait to fulfill my lifelong dream of starting a pizza restaurant in the middle of Manhattan. Like, they’re just not going to do that. So I agree with you. And there’s gonna and that means there’s gonna be less things to enjoy in New York City and more reasons to move away and not just in the suburbs of New York, but down to Florida. I was I was just looking at real estate prices in Florida.

Jason Hartman 31:49
Come on, come on down. The weather is beautiful. In fact, James, I coined a new term just yesterday to describe Florida. Now note that I’m from California, almost all my life. The Socialist Republic was super high taxes worse than New York, by the way. slightly worse. Yeah. And I moved here two years ago, and I’ve coined a new phrase I call it Florida has luxury, whether luxury whether it’s a new kind of weather, luxury together. Yeah,

James Altucher 32:17
I love Florida weather I love right where you are Palm Beach, that whole area, Palm Beach, Boca Raton, Fort Lauderdale del Rey, Miami, I like that whole quadrant. But

Jason Hartman 32:28
come down and bring your Missile Command game is that Missile Command behind you

James Altucher 32:31
know, Missile Command is a horizontal box that is defender just Stargate robotron, the more vertical game, you’re

Jason Hartman 32:39
you’re reminding me of being a teenager when I used to play video games all the time. Yeah,

James Altucher 32:43
yeah. That’s why I got this is $300. For that box, you should get it. It’s got 50 games on it. But what I’m hearing from real estate brokers is that the listing prices have not yet changed. But the offers are coming in 20 to 50% lower right now, maybe people think they’re going to get a bargain. And maybe that’s going to be over once the economy reopens. But some of those offers have been accepted as well. And we’re just not seeing the change in listing prices. But but apparently they’re seeing and I don’t know if she had any insight into this, but apparently they see they are seeing the change in in offers out there. But we’ll see if that holds again. It’s one of the unknown unknowns.

Jason Hartman 33:19
Yeah, right. Yes. Yes. Rumsfeld.

James Altucher 33:23
Known unknown matrix.

Jason Hartman 33:25
I love it. Well, he is there anything else you want to share with our audience? You know, just anything I haven’t asked you? I know. Yeah. I mean, you’ve got so many books, I wouldn’t even know where to go with your books. There’s just so many, but I loved choose yourself, the concept that there’s no gatekeeper. And about a year from now, you’ve got another great book about skipping the line? Which I can’t wait to read that one.

James Altucher 33:45
Well, I think I just want to remind people that, that even if there is this PTSD, even if your job seems insecure, or is or it’s over or you were furloughed a little too easily, and you get nervous or this time alone has made you think you don’t really want to go back to your job or career. Just I think there are a lot of opportunities out there. I think the stimulus there is going to be money in the economy. So the stimulus is a very real trillions and trillions of dollars between Congress and the Federal Reserve. We’re talking like six $7 trillion. That’s real money and and the dollar is not going to inflate. So quickly. There will be opportunities when everyone else is scared to kind of step up and change your life if you want or start a business or invest in yourself, maybe don’t buy stocks, maybe start taking a photography class and, you know, change careers or come up with an idea for you know, any kind of business. Well, James actually,

Jason Hartman 34:42
you know, you wrote 40 alternatives to college. Right? Yeah. And you know, what’s interesting about this, too, is that for the smart and ambitious people they’re using this time as a huge self improvement program. You know, they’re either improving their mind they’re taking courses online, they’re exercising and in fact trustingly you know, the schools, the cut the colleges and the universities and just school school has sent everybody home to learn. And I think this is going to cause a collapse in ridiculously high student tuition for colleges, because nobody’s gonna pay 50 grand a year to learn online without getting a college experience and all of that college real estate, because almost every university now is basically a hedge fund real estate investing company. Right, and a branding agency. It’s ridiculous how far they’ve gotten away from their mission. I can’t blame them, though. I mean, I would do it too, if I was there. But you know, all of that college real estate is going to, it’s going to be reused. It’s going to come up for sale, those dorms that can be sold as condos are turned into apartments, or I don’t know what’s gonna

James Altucher 35:49
become ghost towns like, become ghost towns. Yeah, I agree. College is clearly the tide has come in. And the colleges were left standing naked on the beach.

Jason Hartman 35:58
Yeah. The emperor has no clothes. It’s a ripoff. Yeah,

James Altucher 36:02
the college is clearly a scam. Because they like you said they sent everyone home. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, we were kidding. You don’t really need to be on campus to get the college experience is do it all online? I know, don’t look. But don’t look at Coursera, where you have really great teachers teaching up to date stuff or Code Academy or Khan Academy, Khan Academy class or LinkedIn learnings? Yeah, don’t don’t look at those which have really great teachers and stuff. Just keep going to our old out of date textbooks that we charge you $1,000 a book for. And by the way, get the hell out of the dorm rooms, because we got to take those over, but we’re not giving you your money back.

Jason Hartman 36:38
They won’t even refund the money. It’s lievable. What escapism

James Altucher 36:42
what a one possession is nine tenths of the law. We got your money, see you later. So I don’t know why people would be excited about going to college. But you know, we’ll see. Well, we’ll see. I agree with you, though, I think again, it’s one of those things that what would have been a conversation, five to 10 years from now is going to become a conversation tomorrow much sooner, which

Jason Hartman 36:58
is, which is creative destruction. It’s great. And you know, the the bottleneck in the college, I call it the the university debt enslavement complex. Okay, like the military industrial complex, the bottleneck seems to be the accreditation concept, right? You know, like the Khan Academy, or Coursera is not accredited, you can’t get that document, you can’t get that degree. And as soon as they somehow figure out the roundabout to the accreditation thing, I mean, certainly some companies like Google will hire people without a degree now. And that’s awesome. Because there are tons of smart people walking around without degrees, then when you get around the accreditation bottleneck, then I think things really started to work.

James Altucher 37:41
I thought a lot about this. So one thing is you and I know that that accreditation aspect, it doesn’t really make any sense. Like you say, you know, Google’s actually hiring people without degrees. And many people would be willing to take a chance they see you have the skills they’d rather have that than an MIT degree. Sure. But, you know, kids are influenced by their guidance school counselors and their other friends and their peers. They think you need college. It’s really the kids now they think you need college to get a job. Yeah, and it’s not true. But, you know, maybe there’s a business opportunity. Maybe you could you get a panel of experts or whatever educators and you say, these online courses across these different platforms are what we’re gonna accredit, we’re gonna say this is a worthwhile computer science degree. And we’ll verify

Jason Hartman 38:29
if if there’s a, a financial course that James altucher and Ray Dalio endorse, and you have to pass it. A Wall Street firms should hire that person. Right. Yeah.

James Altucher 38:42
And I think I think that is a reasonable business plan, there’s probably going to be some business models, we’re not even aware of now that that are going to be in that category, because remote learning is definitely a thing that’s gonna ramp up. Big time. Yeah. And, you know, I think also, you know, maybe just people won’t care about accreditation, at some point, maybe, you know, which is the other extreme. And the opportunity now is creating more and more online courses. So you know, an online course is fairly easy to set up. It’s a good way to make a living. It’s one of those make money while you sleep things. Yeah. And we all have the capabilities to be expert enough to teach non experts something, right. And so if you just start now, within two years or less, you could have a great online course that you’re teaching and make a lot of money.

Jason Hartman 39:28
Yeah. And just for the record, I want to say that I don’t think College is a scam in and of itself. I just think it’s massively overpriced. You know, that’s all you know, I think if you could work your way through school with a part time job and pay for it, it’d be okay. I have no objection to that. I just think when it increases in price it three or four times the rate of real inflation. That’s a complete scam is increased.

James Altucher 39:51
tuitions have increased faster than inflation every single year for 50 years in a row.

Jason Hartman 39:57
Well, when the government ensures the loans and flooding into the system. You get inflation. What a concept, right? Yeah. Absolutely. James, give out your website.

James Altucher 40:06
It’s James altucher calm or you could find me on Twitter at jL Dutcher or find me on Instagram at Al Dutcher or find me on tik tok at James altucher just started doing my Tick Tock video,

Jason Hartman 40:18
though that just proves beyond the shadow of a doubt, you are hip and cool. You do Tick Tock.

James Altucher 40:27
I hope my kids Listen to this. And they you could tell them that Yeah.

Jason Hartman 40:30
Well have them listen. Definitely that their their dad is hip and cool.

James Altucher 40:34
They’re having me on the show. I really enjoyed it.

Jason Hartman 40:35
Thanks so much for joining us,

James Altucher 40:37
Jason. Thanks so much. Thanks again.

Jason Hartman 40:43
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

AMA 389: Saifedean Ammous Discusses The Bitcoin Standard, Time Preference

Saifadean Ammous, the author of The Bitcoin Standard, joins Jason to explain the three basic functions of money and why this matters with Bitcoin. Will Bitcoin push out the role of central banks? If so, why would the government let Bitcoin exist?

Saif continues discussing the government’s role or ability to have a role in cryptocurrency, specifically Bitcoin. As well, what is time preference, and how does it differ from inflation?

Key Takeaways:

Saifadean Ammous, author of The Bitcoin Standard

[1:00] Money has three basic functions of money:

[3:45] How does Bitcoin act as a base layer of money, similar to the central banks’ settlement layer?

[8:00] Why would the government let Bitcoin exist?

[17:00] Have you been bitten by the Bitcoin bug?

[17:25] Could the government make Bitcoin illegal?

[29:45] Is there a distinction between time preference and the time value of money, aka inflation?

[31:45] Saifedean’s wife sells the chair he’s sitting on out from underneath him.

[32:10] Art on the gold standard, will it stand the test of time?

[41:20] “A lot of people prefer to laugh than to think.” -Saifedean on Hedonism


Jason Hartman Quick Start

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (Libsyn)

Jason Hartman PropertyCast (iTunes)


The Person Who Loses The Least Wins with Doug Casey

Today’s guest is the author of Crisis Investing: Opportunities and Profits in the Coming Great Depression, Doug Casey. Doug shares his thoughts on the 2008 recession and why you should choose mining over bonds, stocks, cash, gold, and cryptocurrency. Then, Jason and Doug talk about The Great Recession, a potential Greater Depression, and the importance of having an asset without a counter-party risk after the depression.

Announcer 0:01
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman

Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the American monetary associations podcast where we explore how monetary policy impacts the real lives of real people. And the action steps necessary to preserve wealth and enhance one’s lifestyle.

Jason Hartman 0:30
Let’s welcome back a guest who’s been on several times. And that is none other than Doug Casey. He is the founder of international man. Also Casey Research, which he’s not as directly involved with anymore. He’s an author of several great books, and a real thought leader on various investments and situations. And we’re obviously all in a situation now. So I wanted to invite him back, Doug, it’s great to have you back on and you’re coming to us from Argentina. Is that or no? Ecuador, right?

Doug Casey 1:01
No, across the river. I’m in Oregon.

Jason Hartman 1:04
Why are farm here? Fantastic. And then you also at least used to live in Aspen half of the year. And then South America the other half of the year. Is that about right?

Doug Casey 1:15
That’s right. I still have my ranch in Aspen. But it’s questionable whether I’ll even go back there this summer.

Jason Hartman 1:21
Yeah. Well, I met you in Aspen and we did a live interview in person there and that was a lot of fun. I think maybe that was the last time you were on the show, but a lot has changed in the world. What is your take on the coronavirus pandemic situation? Is this an overreaction? Is the is the reaction maybe bigger than the problem or what are you thinking?

Doug Casey 1:43
It’s a gigantic overreaction. The hysteria that’s going on right now is the biggest in the way of hysteria since the witch trials of the late the late the late 17th century. Wow. It’s usually overblown. The fact of the matter is that the ordinary seasonal flu kills someplace between 20 560,000 American 25,000 60,000 Americans a year and always has the death toll from this isn’t going to be anything near that. But these morons have totally shut down the economy. And I don’t think it’s going to recover very easily. So this is a man made disaster. And I’m not talking about the virus itself. I have no idea what it is. It’s just another virus. There are hundreds of viruses, the pass through the population, and always have but people only really isolated viruses as a kind of life form. It was only 70 or 80 years ago. So these things have been going on since day one. This is just one among many. And it should be and would have been just forgotten. But it’s not it’s it’s turned into a major disaster. No, good.

Jason Hartman 3:02
Okay. I don’t want to get into the debate because we’ll burn up a lot of time of is this different than the flu or not? There are some differences even though the death numbers are the issue you mentioned is definitely correct. But there’s the contagiousness, there’s, there’s the treatment, there’s the overwhelming the health care system possibility. There’s the fact that, you know, on the normal flu, you usually don’t need ventilators. So some differences. I mean, you agree with that, right?

Doug Casey 3:27
Well, look, I’m not a biologist, I’m not an epidemiology. I’m not a medical expert. And I don’t really trust anything that you see on the news these days. Yeah. So who really knows? Right? All I can say is that I haven’t personally, I don’t personally know anybody that’s been afflicted by the virus.

Jason Hartman 3:49
Okay, fair enough. So the economy, let’s jump on that now. The economy is in uncharted territory. I mean, I like to say, Doug, that we are witnessing the biggest money printing extravaganza in world history. And we’re just seeing the beginning of it. Now. The 2.2 trillion is just the beginning. At least that’s my take on it. What do you think about this, you know, the various bailouts, the various aid, and it feels like we’re galloping towards socialism. Wow, it’s, it’s absolutely crazy.

Doug Casey 4:21
Well, it’s a catastrophe in the making. The analogy I like to use is that since the meltdown of 2008, look at that as being entering the leading edge of a huge financial hurricane. We went through the leading edge of the hurricane in 2008, and nine and 10. A very big hurricane. So we’ve been going through a very big eye of the storm. Now we’re entering the trailing edge of the storm, and it’s going to be much worse, much different and much longer lasting than the unpleasantness that we might remember from 2008 and nine and 10.

Jason Hartman 4:58
Okay, so your metaphor is that For the past eight to 10 years coming out of the Great Recession, and I’m, I’m sort of using 2012 is the kind of coming out of the Great Recession, even some would consider it 2010. But 810 years was the eye of the hurricane. And now, you know, in the eye, it’s sort of calm, right? There’s been a good economy, things have been growing people, there’s a wealth effect that’s been going on that last eight or 10 years. And now we’re gonna get the other part of the storm, right? Is that the way you’re looking at it?

Doug Casey 5:30
That’s right. And what happened was, is that the government caused the disaster 2008, so forth. By creating gigantic distortions and Miss allocations of capital, we can go back a lot further Western civilization itself, which, incidentally, is the only civilization in the history of the world that actually counts. It peaked in 1914, and has been going downhill since then. That’s not to say that science and technology, which are the sole fruits, which are among the fruits of Western civilization, the only civilization that has a meaningful science and technology, but science and technology has been increasing at the rate of Moore’s law for the last 100 years. But the civilization itself has been going downhill. So

Jason Hartman 6:26
tell us what you mean by that. Because I sometimes like to say with a friend of mine, that we think civilization peaked in 1990. Now, granted, there has been technological advance since then, but I’m talking about the culture war. What do you mean by that? When you say you say 1914?

Doug Casey 6:44
Well, okay, you’re

Jason Hartman 6:44
probably talking about the Federal Reserve and the IRS coming along, right?

Doug Casey 6:49
Those are two of the things that I’m talking about, but the essence of Western civilization, what started with the Greeks in the fifth century BC, the luck, it’s all kinds of things that have changed over the years. And that’s a entirely separate conversation. But I think that what we’re looking at here is something much more serious than just say, financial meltdown, I think it’s going to turn into an economic meltdown, we’re going to have gigantic political changes, it’s going to turn into a social meltdown, as well. The United States itself, incidentally, is no longer really a country. It’s a multicultural domestic Empire, at this point. And it’s very hard to hold something like that together. We don’t ever have a binding culture, where people that live in the geographic area called the United States, they no longer share anything that resembles a common religion, even a common language. common culture. Yes, because there’s so

Jason Hartman 8:00
much for America being a melting pot lately, right? It’s more of a toss salad. Would that be a fair statement?

Doug Casey 8:07
Well, that’s right. It’s a toss out where its components don’t even go together very well,

Jason Hartman 8:13
right? a mismatch toss salad, but the ingredients don’t taste good. Okay. All right.

Doug Casey 8:21
So this whole thing, the virus is really just the pin that broke the gigantic financial bubble that was created by the government creating trillions of dollars starting in 2008. And it wasn’t only the US government, it’s all the major governments around the world that have created trillions and trillions of their own currencies. Now that the pin has broken the bubble, they can no longer reduce interest rates any further. They’re already zero or below zero in Europe and Japan, close to zero in the US, can they create a lot more money? Well, they’re doing that, but these trillions of dollars, basically helicopter money, maybe they’re gonna blow up the markets again, of the financial markets. Sure. That’s the first place the money goes. But this time around, we’re going to have huge price rises on our retail level, food, shelter, clothing, basics of that nature, are all gonna start heading up strongly at the very time.

Jason Hartman 9:25
You mean prices of those things? Exactly. Okay. Right. So inflation in food clothing shelter, you said Right,

Doug Casey 9:32
exactly. We’ve had we’ve had plenty of inflation in the financial markets with stock

Jason Hartman 9:37
price. Inflation versus consumer price, inflation got it.

Doug Casey 9:41
Exactly. And even bond prices are at an all time high. This next time around actually, the big problem This time around, isn’t going to be so much the stock market, although it’s we just started upon this bear market. And the big problem is going to be in bonds. There are triple threat to your account. You have the inflation risk, the currency that the dollars that you get back are going to go down in value very rapidly over the next decade, you’ve got the interest rate risk, interest rates now at an all time low, are going to start heading back up to levels, they were in the early 80s. and beyond. By that, I mean, 15 and 20% and higher. And the last, the default risk, there’s so much debt in the world, a lot of it’s not going to be paid. So bonds are about the worst place for your money at this point.

Jason Hartman 10:32
Okay. And I’d agree with that bonds are very vulnerable to inflation. So I would definitely agree with you there. Okay. So I mean, would it be fair to say that you’re a gold bug?

Doug Casey 10:42
Well, I believe that gold is proven as being the best kind of money. It has unique characteristics that are really only true of gold. Does it make it especially useful for money, steel is especially useful for buildings and cars. And aluminum is good for cans and airplanes. And every one of the 92 naturally occurring elements has unique characteristics. And gold is the most durable and divisible of all the naturally occurring elements as especially as money. That’s why it’s always been used as money. So I think the world is going to go back to gold, and the idea of national currencies that are not even paper anymore, because they want to go digital with total disaster from a personal freedom point of view,

Jason Hartman 11:38
meaning a private, because your let me just expand on that for a moment. You know, if you don’t have privacy, in the way you allocate your resources, if you don’t have privacy and the way you spend your money, you know, that is a very big concern for liberty. Okay, financial privacy, you know, if the government can track through a digital dollar, or a cryptocurrency that is sponsored by the central banks and the governments, then you have no privacy, they know everything you buy, they know every, every they know, they know how much you have. And they know everything you buy, and they know what you spend, they know if you bought a gun, they know if you bought a face mask, they know if you bought a new phone, you went to a strip club, okay, so this is very risky that they do that. And I already see them through this crisis, paving the way to that China, as this first started to break out, you know, there were articles about how the currency is dangerous, because it carries germs, and people can become infected by using the currency. And China is fairly cashless, by the way, at least when I was there, you know, people were using WeChat to pay for lots of things and just not a lot of cash being used. Of course, the Scandinavian countries are almost completely cashless. Some places in the US are cashless, where they literally say, you know, please no cash, you know, use a credit card use Apple Pay, or Google pay. So this, this is a big concern. You know, as far as cryptocurrencies go, I think the one that will win the game is not going to be Bitcoin or aetherium, or anything else, it’s going to be the one sponsored by the governments and the central banks.

Doug Casey 13:18
I’m certainly going to avoid using any government or central bank cryptocurrency.

Jason Hartman 13:23
Yeah, well, I’m not saying I like the idea of them winning the game. I’m just saying, because they’re the most the governments and central banks are the most powerful entities the human race has ever known. They will force it upon us, they’ll just tell us that’s what we have to use. There are now legal tender laws about the dollar, saying it’s for all debts, public and private, right? It says it right on the on the currency. And they’ll just make us use it. Right?

Doug Casey 13:48
Well, I suppose they will. But this is one of the advantages of living and out of the way backward countries, as I do, I mean, I’ve, I’ve traveled many times, most of these countries many times, to 155 different countries, I’ve lived in 10 different countries. And I find that I generally prefer living in these quiet, backward countries, even countries that have, especially countries that have serious economic problems, because bringing capital from outside I can have an extraordinarily high standard of living and a very low cost. But getting back to what you were saying, yes, the world is going to go in that direction. I don’t know what you can do about it. If if the whole world starts to resemble Germany in the 1930s, or the Soviet Union from the way it was from the 1920s to the 1980s. There’s not much you can do about it. And unfortunately, most people worship their governments they think that their governments are necessary and important and good. I’ve been a philosophical anarchist for many years. I don’t believe that the institution of government does. So is either necessary or immoral? But that’s, that’s the philosophical standard. And

Jason Hartman 15:06
that would take an awfully long time to discuss. So let’s skip that one for now. But yeah, okay, got it. So the next things to expect, we both agree that we’re going to see more socialism, more government intrusion in our lives, the movement toward a government sponsored cryptocurrency. And we all agree on that,

Doug Casey 15:27
yep, that’s what’s going to happen that’s in the cards, we’re gonna see much higher levels of inflation, which is allowed on the part of the central banks, which create the currency, they’re going to be creating tons of new currency, whether it’s the old currency that we use now, or the new one will be much easier for them to do that will create more distortions in the market. But what we’ve entered upon is what I call the greater depression. As I said before, it’s going to be much worse and more serious and different than the unpleasantness, not just of 2008, and on, but of 1929 to 1946. This has the potential to be the biggest upset since the Industrial Revolution, it’s gonna be fascinating to watch it,

Jason Hartman 16:12
It definitely is. And hopefully, we will help our listeners at least be comfortable through it or potentially thrive and prosper through it. Because economics is a relative game, all you have to do is be ahead of the average, and you are winning, okay, even if the average declines, just be ahead of it. So if everybody’s losing their shirt, and you’re treading water and staying the same, you’re doing great, okay, and one of the things I would encourage people to do, because one of my other predictions is we’re going I mean, there are many, but you know, we’re going to see, people flee high density living environments, to low density living environments, they already know, now they can usually work at home, we’re going to see a move toward a simpler life, I believe out of this, we are going to see a move toward a nationwide Housing Assistance Program, maybe it’s the section eight program we already have expanded, or a whole new program, we’re gonna see more pushes toward universal basic income, and Spain has already is already in the process of enacting a universal basic income. And this is going to spread around the world if you ask me. But you know, when I was a kid, Doug, and I did encourage people to you know, go to YouTube or whatever and watch some of the episodes, I used to watch the show The Waltons, I’m sure you know that show. And, and you just see how simple life was back then. Right? I think we see it, you know, we view that when we watch any old era, TV or movie, but you look at that, and you also look at the Great Depression, and how people in the urban areas in the high density areas were hurt the most. And the people that suffered the least, or the people living in the more rural and they’d really didn’t have suburbia back then yet, because that came after world war two in America, which is a uniquely American idea, suburbia, they didn’t really, you know, their life didn’t change that much at all. They grew their own food, they were self sufficient. And, you know, they kind of went on with life. But if you were in an urban area, or you were in line for soup, or whatever you could get, and you couldn’t be self sufficient. And so, you know, there’s been this push to push people, maybe it’s un agenda 21 or whatever, or just, you know, the way societies evolve toward these high density, urban living environments where they cannot be self sufficient. You probably have some thoughts on that, especially since you live on ranches anywhere you go, right?

Doug Casey 18:41
Yes, I agree. You’re you’re absolutely correct. There will be a move away from the city is now here in Oregon. I’m on 1000 acres, I’ve got

Jason Hartman 18:51
just 2000

Doug Casey 18:53
Well, that’s a very small plot for this part of the world. If you’re a landowner. Yeah. I mean, across the river in Argentina, I have about 150,000 acres in conjunction with some partners. But this is a much more livable thing to be on. But here I’ve got, I’ve got a gym, I’ve got a pool, I’ve got a mile a river front, I’ve got dairy cows, beef, cows, chickens. So I’m pretty self contained. I’ve got a great library and we’re on the internet right now. So what else I need? Actually, nothing that I can think of. Yeah. Oh, you’re quite correct. On all what you said, I’m I’m intensely optimistic about the long term future. I’m a believer in Ray Kurzweil, his concept of the singularity, right coming up, perhaps at the end of this generation.

Jason Hartman 19:48
He predicts 2030 will achieve singularity when the $1,000 computer can do what the human brain can do. Right is That that’s part of the singularity concept that Ray Kurzweil talks about.

Doug Casey 20:03
That’s just part of it.

Jason Hartman 20:05
Yeah, go ahead and expand on it, if you would,

Doug Casey 20:07
locations in many, many different areas of life that will, could transform life totally, especially when we get into nanotechnology. So if you can hang on for another 20 years, we may live in a absolutely different world, hopefully a much, much better world, but totally different. But we have to do here is figure out what’s going to happen over the next few years. And I believe that the general standard of living is going to go down a lot, the chaos levels going to go up a lot. And the only thing that you can really do other than speculate in the markets to try to stay ahead. Although I’ve got to say that’s going to be very hard, because the depression is a time when everybody’s standard of living goes down. And the winner is just the person that loses the least

Jason Hartman 20:55
right, exactly that, by the way. listeners, that’s a really good point. Doug, can you repeat that? Yeah,

Doug Casey 21:03
in a depression, the winner is the person that loses the least, because the general standard of living drops into depression. And that’s what we’re looking at.

Jason Hartman 21:13
Okay, so tell us how we lose the least I like it, that’s good.

Doug Casey 21:17
The most important thing is that you have assets, where there’s no counterparty risk, we don’t have to trust a bank, or an insurance company, or for that matter, your pension fund, which is stuffed with bonds and or price stocks. So I think that your basic savings should be in the form of gold and silver coins, mostly in your own possession. If you have significant assets, you should have them in more than one political jurisdiction, because your greatest danger today isn’t the markets, which are dangerous enough, but it’s the political system, it’s your government. So you should have lots of gold and silver coins. And if you want to speculate, the best place to be, in my opinion, are mining stocks. They’re very cheap. Right now, gold mines, especially, are all making a lot of money at 16 $100 an ounce, but they’re very cheap, because the average financial manager doesn’t believe in them, he doesn’t understand them, he doesn’t own them, that’s gonna change, they’ll pile on to them. It’s gonna be like the contents of Hoover Dam trying to get through a garden hose in the next few years. So that’s where I’m concentrated right now. mining stocks, in general,

Jason Hartman 22:38
just about mining stocks, vcv, cheap oil, that’s good news for the miners, right? Where energy gets really cheap, because it’s it cost less to bring bring the metals out of the ground is that is that how you would look at

Doug Casey 22:49
that depends on the type of mine, whether it’s underground mine or an open pit mine, whether the mine is close to civilization or far away. But we can generalize and say that perhaps 20% of the cost of mining is oil related. And, of course, oil has fallen in the last couple of months from about $55, down to about 25. At the moment, I don’t know how much lower it can go because none of the frackers in the US are making money. In fact, they’re all hemorrhaging money at this point, right?

Jason Hartman 23:23
They were probably going to lose them completely. They’re just not going to stay in business.

Doug Casey 23:28
Probably not unless oil prices go up. But I speculate in commodities, not just oil and gas, and copper and gold, but soybeans and hogs and cocoa and coffee, all the rest of them. And what I can tell you right now is that none of the producers of commodities, except for gold, are making money. It doesn’t matter that the gold miners are making money from Gold’s point of view, because all the gold that’s ever been mined, basically, is still in existence. That’s not true of any other commodity. Even silver.

Jason Hartman 24:07
You know, I just gotta ask you about that for a second. This still seems pretty far fetched to me. But it’s worth a discussion point. What about mining the asteroids? What about creating these metals and alat in labs? You know, I’ve read articles about both of those things. And, you know, maybe the supply isn’t as limited as we want to believe this may be far off, but I don’t know how far you know, maybe it’s not that far out.

Doug Casey 24:30
In my one of my books, crisis investing for the rest of the 90s. I talked about exactly this. There are about 6 billion ounces of gold in existence right now. above ground, okay. That’s the best guess nobody knows for sure. About 80 million ounces per year are produced. So the amount of gold in the world grows by about one and a third one and a half percent per year. Now. Your question was Can I supply go up a lot? Not really here on planet Earth, because all of the high grade deposits have basically been found people have been looking for gold for 1000s of years, so low hanging fruits been found. Now, when you find a new gold deposit, you’re looking at moving hundreds of millions of tons of ore, and it might Grade A 100th of an ounce per ton. This is next to nothing. a gold mine is an hour. It’s nothing like the basin, treasure of Sierra Madre, you’re talking about gigantic earthmoving operation is extremely capital intensive and high cost. Now, what can change that? Will they mined the asteroids? Yes, of course they will. There’s no question that the acid many of the asteroids have heavy metals in them like Iridium, and rhodium, and gold, platinum among these things, but that’s going to be very, very high cost. And that’s pretty far in the future still 20 or 30 or 40 years, the sea is full of gold, it’s full of everything, everything dissolves into the sea. So can gold be recovered from the sea? People have talked about that for many generations? Well, perhaps bioengineering could breed types of seaweed that can concentrate gold and must weigh the spinach concentrates iron, this type of thing could be done soon? No, not very soon at all, could go be created, transmuted from other elements. Yes, of course.

Jason Hartman 26:35
alchemy? Yeah. Right.

Doug Casey 26:37
It can be done. It’s just a question of the number of protons in the nucleus of an atom. But

Jason Hartman 26:44
I just wanted to bring that up. Because you know, the value of precious metals, diamonds, or most anything else is based on scarcity versus demand, you know, it needs to be scarce, and it needs to have high demand. That’s how you how the value is upheld, right? If it’s abundant, it has low demand, or if it’s abundant, then the demand can be met. If it’s scarce, and there’s demand for it, then the demand can’t be met and the price goes up. That’s right. Yeah, basic economics.

Doug Casey 27:18
Don’t Don’t worry, don’t worry about a lot of gold and a time in the near future. Okay. All right. It’s just not an element.

Jason Hartman 27:25
Okay. What else do you want to say, you know, we brought up the part about the move toward socialism and more bailouts and increased government intervention, and, you know, inflation, and inflationary future. Any any more thoughts about that,

Doug Casey 27:40
I’ll just say that we’ve entered upon the greater depression, which is what I call it, and there’s not much you can do about it, in much the same way that if a society jumps off the top of 100, storey building, they’re fine until they hit the ground, or about to hit the ground, hold onto your hand, it’s going to be very interesting, with all kinds of consequences. One of the most serious of them down the road is going to be military. I mean, we’ve had World War Two, and there will be a world war three, it’ll be very, very different from World War Two. And I suspect, it’s going to have a substantial biological component. So all the F 20, twos and B twos, and the rest of those

Jason Hartman 28:21
are not going to matter that much.

Doug Casey 28:23
Well, it’s not gonna matter. I mean, it’s all that’s done as is helped to bankrupt the US. So it’s gonna be interesting to watch on your widescreen.

Jason Hartman 28:33
Who’s the we’re gonna be with? Is it gonna be China?

Doug Casey 28:35
Well, look, if it’s a biological war, it can be with a really smart kid that lives in a basement. In Serbia, for all I know, there are many advantages to biological war. And the US government has been working on this type of thing, mainly at Fort Detrick in the US for decades, in this sense, or as a billions of dollars developing all kinds of nasty things. But with the development of CRISPR and gene

Jason Hartman 29:03
editing technology.

Doug Casey 29:05
Yeah, exactly. In other words, over the next generation, just in the last generation, computer science was the big deal over the next generation, I think it’s gonna be biological science. So but we’ll also have a computer element to World War Three, because the whole world runs on computers, everything from the electricity grid to the financial system, everything. It’s all computer driven. Now didn’t used to be. So you’re going to have world war three is going to be a computer war with biological war. And of course, there’ll still be people running around with ak 47 shooting, but it’s going to be nasty.

Jason Hartman 29:42
Any idea when that’s coming? Doug, you know, you’ve cheered us up so much today.

Doug Casey 29:49
I’m just kidding. I’m just calling him the way I see it. I prefer good times. Much more than I prefer bad times. But I didn’t make the game. Yeah, right, of course, but I wouldn’t recommender, however, to your listeners, Jay says that they read the novels that I’ve written. You can say many things in the form of fiction that you cannot say, or you perhaps shouldn’t say. So they can go on Amazon and pick up a copy of speculator, which is about the mining business and a bush war in Africa. And drug lord is our hero goes into that trade. And now assassin, which will be out in July, where our hero Charles Knight, investigates the world of assassinations, political assassins, in particular. And there gonna be other novels that are even more radical to follow. So you don’t want to fall behind. So I would,

Jason Hartman 30:43
very early and done, those are available at all the usual sources, do you want to give out a website as well?

Doug Casey 30:50
Well go to international I do an interview or two, but with them every week, and we have a lot of great articles. It’s free. But they’re fantastic articles on all kinds of things. So international is the place to go.

Jason Hartman 31:06
Excellent. And Doug, thanks for sharing some of these thoughts with us today. And let’s just close with that idea of it. in bad times. In general, the person who wins is the person who loses the least. And that’s what we’re here for. It’s a relative thing. I always say economics is a relative thing. So like that old cliche, that story of the bear in the woods, and the two hikers and the one that’s, you know, tightening his shoelaces and his buddy says, Man, you can’t outrun a bear and he says, I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you. And and that’s, you know, really what it is about is losing the least, because everything is relative. Doug Casey, thanks for joining us again.

Doug Casey 31:49
Okay, my pleasure, Jason.

Jason Hartman 31:55
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website Hartman Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

Jim Rogers Adventure Capitalist 4200% ROI in 10 Years

At the start of the show, Jason Hartman talks a little bit about partnership and his investing commandment number 3, “Thou shalt maintain control.” He says that when you look back over time, the rewards always go to the doers. They always go to the risk-takers! In the interview segment, he talks to Jim Rogers. Jim talks about the government and its need to get more power than they have. They also talk about the government’s financial strategies and the big question concerning government stimulus right now, “how will we suffer from this?”

Announcer 0:01
This show is produced by the Hartman media company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit Hartman

Announcer 0:12
Welcome to the American monetary associations podcast where we explore how monetary policy impacts the real lives of real people, and the action steps necessary to preserve wealth and enhance one’s lifestyle.

Jason Hartman 0:29
Thank you for joining me today. And it is always an honor to be your guide through this financial life we live in, and not just financial life, but a little bit of life in general. You know, I was listening to the flashback Friday Episode 1462. And wow, you know, the great ideas of history are just there are just some ideas that are just great. And they, they stand the test of time, when you look at some of the ideas that came out of, you know, the Roman Empire and from the great philosophers, and it is truly amazing how those great ideas Well, the great ideas from antiquity are still great ideas today.

And how little things have changed in some ways. But at the same time, of course, how much things have changed at the same time. So as you may have heard last week, on an episode I told you that I reordered for maybe the 50th time, the book Earl Nightingale’s greatest discovery, which is such a great book, it’s out of print, I got a hold of a used copy of it. Gosh, what’s the copyright date on this book? 1987 1987. And Earl Nightingale died in 1989. I believe it was March 25. If I remember correctly, that was a date, I noticed. And we’ll remember because he was such a great thinker and really shared so many great ideas, and he influenced my life in so many positive ways. And today, we are going to have a great thinker, Jim Rogers, the legendary Jim Rogers is our guest today. And let me tell you what a big deal Jim Rogers is. He’s such a humble man. But this is his fourth time on the show. So he’d been on three times before, but the last time was like seven years ago. So I had him back on the show. And when he had his hedge fund with his former partner, George Soros, yes, that was his business partner, and he doesn’t like to talk about it. He says, if he asked me about my former partner, that’s like asking me about my ex wife. Oh, I get it. I feel the same way about some some people I’ve been in business with over the years, sadly. But that’s the way it goes. Right. Like my late grandmother told me many, many years ago, she said, Jason, the hardest ship to sail is a partnership. That’s pretty good advice there. And that is why you should follow my commandment number three, thou shalt maintain control by being a direct investor, because then you don’t have to sail, the hardest ship, a partnership, the hardest ship, but Jim Rogers is such an interesting guy. And he wrote the book investment biker, which some of you may know about. It was a very famous book. And then the book that I really fell in love with his work was adventure capitalist, where he talked about how he and his I believe fiance, I don’t think they were married yet. went around the world to like, I don’t know, 100 ish countries give or take in a customized Mercedes. And they just drove that thing all around the world. And he talks about capitalism around the world. And it was so fascinating, really just just a fascinating book that I had listened to on audio and also read more than once. I don’t know how many times offhand but but it was a great book. And I want to get into that in a moment here. But speaking of great thinkers and great ideas, I want to share with you a quote that I discovered at age 17 that I always liked. I one of my very favorite writers, and that is Ralph Waldo Emerson, the good old Emerson. And this quote is really great. He says, to laugh often and much. I think I could learn from that I don’t laugh often or much. But I should do it more. Okay, so his quote, to laugh often and much to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics, and to endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty to find the beauty and others to leave the world a bit. matter whether by a healthy child a garden patch, or redeemed social condition, or a job well done, to know even one other life has breathed easier, because you have lived. This is to have succeeded. And that is I don’t believe that was in Earl Nightingale his great book, the greatest Earl Nightingale his greatest discovery, but it is a great quote, I think maybe I heard it first from Denis waitley. Who is by the way, where I learned about Earl Nightingale from Denis waitley. And check out Episode Number 150 Denis waitley, is on that show. And I was lucky enough to be able to interview him on the show. And these just great thinkers have such enduring influence. What I think of Jim Rogers and 40 200% return on investment in a decade in his hedge fund. And that was at the same time that the s&p I think was the s&p maybe the Dow don’t quote me on this did 47% in the decade, his fund earned 40 200%. Can you believe it? That’s insanity. It’s incredible. It’s incredible. And when I think of these great thinkers and great authors and great thought leaders of our time, one of the passages from Earl Nightingale his book, I think, is encouraging to all of us to be one of these people to be one of these people, because we are the leaders of our own lives. And we’ve got to become the heroes of our own lives. And as far as your investments go, I’m here to be your guide to help you with your investment portfolio. But look, you have to be the hero, and nobody can do that for you. Only you can do that. That is your province, your agency completely. And it is amazing to me, when you look at over time over maybe 10 or 20 years. The rewards always go to the doers. And they always go to the risk takers. And sometimes the risk takers certainly lose. And sometimes they win. But he got to go out and you got to just take that risk alone. And Earl Nightingale talks about that in this book. And by the way, since this is not on computer, I can’t search it, I was literally flipping pages to try and find this one great part where he talks about risk. I’ll probably find that for an episode later this week, maybe. But one passage I did find that I really like here. And he says William Lyon Phelps, former president of Yale University used to say, quote, The most interesting people are the people with the most interesting pictures in their minds. Think about that for a moment. The most interesting people are the people with the most interesting pictures in their minds. Unquote. And then URL says, so I’m, it’s like a double quote here. I’m quoting Earl’s quoting, William Lyon Phelps, and I’m quoting Earl Nightingale, okay, you get the idea. The ideas we hold that direct the course of our lives, pictures in our minds, our art gallery, we might say, and our facial appearance after 40, interestingly enough, is usually a reflection of that art gallery. We are told that our faces after 40 are our own responsibilities, it’s only natural that they should mirror the contents of our minds. That’s what makes so many middle aged and older people beautiful and handsome, and so many not. Unfortunately, in all the years of their lives, they have failed to put together a gallery of ideas that reflect good sheer happiness and hopeful expectation. Once again, it’s the minority that realizes the importance of great ideas in our lives. Ideas are simply everything. A person can have beautiful features. But if great ideas aren’t there, the resulting vacuum is quite apparent. And then that’s the quote I read to you on the last episode last Thursday, I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I woke and saw that life was duty. I acted, and behold, duty was joy. And Earl Nightingale goes on to say there’s an idea I hold from which I derive a great deal of inner peace and contentment. Anyway, this is just such a great book. It’s unbelievable. Get it if you can. It’s out of print, but available used. And it’s funny because speaking of ideas that people hold in their mind, in this book that I got from the US bookstore, there was a postcard dated three 588 from the Loews Ventana Canyon resort in Tucson, Arizona. And this is too Marsha Jacobs, the postcard. And I guess the person never sent it because they never put the address on here. But she was Janet, who wrote this was probably reading this book and wrote a postcard to her friend, Marsha, and yeah.

Oh, human history, it’s so amazing and ideas that people have. So make sure that the ideas you hold in your mind are big ideas. And one big idea I want to share with you before we get to Jim Rogers, if nothing else went right. And you had purchased properties from us, which I know many of you do, many of you listening did back when I started in the investor, only business in 2004. And you got mortgages back then, of $1 million. Because remember, those mortgages back then were plentiful. And they weren’t as cheap as they were today. But they were still cheap. You’re probably refinanced by, by now, maybe a few times, you did the refi to die strategy. But if nothing else went right, if nothing else went right, you made $357,000 by only one dimension of your multi dimensional asset class, inflation induced debt destruction. And that is not reflected on property tracker. It’s not reflected in the store the property store at Jason This is outside of that calculation, inflation induced debt destruction. And guess what else? But wait, there’s more, as they say on the late night, sleazy infomercial. But wait, there’s more. That only includes that only includes inflation calculated at the official rate, which we know is massively understated. That is a 35.7% return just on inflation, nothing else inflation and dousset destruction, because inflation pays off those mortgages for you. So it’s pretty hard not to succeed, with good quality income property investing with a good strategy behind it. But what does it take? It takes you being the hero of your own life, you got to do it. And maybe you’re already doing it, many of you are. But are you doing it enough? Should you be doing it more? Because to be the hero of your own life? Well, how do we remember a hero? Well, they do something big, something significant. They don’t just do the normal thing. They don’t just do the conservative thing. They don’t just do the easy thing. They do something great. They take a bigger risk, they take a bigger venture, and that is how they become the hero of their own life. So without further ado, let’s get to Jim Rogers, if you need us reach out through Jason, or one 800 Hartman. And here is the legendary Jim Rogers.

It’s my pleasure to welcome back a returning guest. And that is the gentleman investor, Jim Rogers. back for his fourth time on the show. He really needs no introduction. But he’s got an incredible track record with investing. And he wrote one of my all time favorite books, entitled adventure capitalist I, that’s one of many. But that was the one where I really just fell in love with his work. And he’s gone around the world twice, once on a motorcycle. And he wrote about that an investment biker. And then in a custom made Mercedes, that was a venture capitalist. And he’s gotten many books since then. But it’s a pleasure to have him back.

Jim, welcome. How are you doing?

Jim Rogers 13:57
I am delighted to be here. Yes, four times. You’re right. Wow. It’s great to have you and it’s been it’s you’re tired of me by now. No,

Jason Hartman 14:04
never get tired of you. And it’s been it’s been seven years since we had you on the show. So it’s been a long time. But it’s great to have you back. And

Jim Rogers 14:13
the last time Oh, my gosh, what did I do wrong?

Jason Hartman 14:16
It was it was February of 2013. But this is a time of extraordinary crisis. And Keynesian money printing like crazy, Jim. I mean, what do you make of the world’s response to COVID-19? I mean, where do we start? Right? There’s, there’s just so much going on nowadays.

Jim Rogers 14:38
Well, Jason, we’ve had many epidemics in history. This is the first time we’ve closed down the whole world. I’m not quite sure what had to guess the press or politicians or somebody panics. Because we know in 2009, the US we had a huge h1 in one virus didn’t close down McDonald’s in close Delta Airlines, nobody closed anything. So I have Have a feeling that maybe we’ve overreacted, the cure can be worse than the disease at times, and I’m afraid that’s what’s happened more worried, not more worrying, but equally worrying. You know, these guys have an election in November. They don’t care about you, me. People watching this show young Pete, my I don’t care about my kids. After the election, the amounts of money which have been printed and spent and borrow them is staggering. So America, since we’re Americans, America is going to have a huge burden for a long, long time, not just about major Japanese, or maybe worse, you know, the head of the Bank of Japan goes to work every morning turns on the printing press and prints as fast as he can. As fast as he can. So I mean, it’s the world’s making it. If you ask me making big mistakes,

Jason Hartman 15:49
yeah, you really is just, I mean, we thought it was unprecedented during the Great Recession. But look at it now. I was looking at a chart yesterday, Jim, that said that Japan has dedicated 21% of its GDP to the COVID stimulus, the US 13%. But Japan by far the leader, and they already have, what 230% debt to GDP ratio, and a declining population. So that mix I mean, I don’t think there will be a Japan in 50 or 70 years. Well, there.

Jim Rogers 16:21
Jason, right. I’ve just published two books in Japan this month, two books saying exactly the same thing. Number one bestsellers last year, saying, guys, this is going to be a disaster. I say it again. Yeah. There’s not gonna be in Japan.

Jason Hartman 16:37
They gotta have some children or some immigration, or fix the economy some way or another, because it’s just, it’s just unbelievable what’s going on there. But you know, Jim, one of the things you said years ago, which I was really super fascinated, I always have maybe it’s been a morbid curiosity. You’ve been to many more countries than me, but I’ve got 87 under my belt. And I’ve always been fascinated by North Korea. And I was fascinated by one of your remarks about North Korea a few years back, saying that you thought it would open, and it would become one of the most fascinating regions in the world. And there would be a lot of new labor available. You know, obviously an inexpensive labor market. It companies could exploit, you know, for lack of a better word. Maybe that’s not the right word. You know, what do you think about North Korea now, especially with the sort of disappearance of Kim Jong Hoon? I don’t know if he’s back yet. Or not.

Jim Rogers 17:28
He reappeared. He reappeared. He was down at the Disco for a while. Well, what I said was the Korean Peninsula wants to 38 parallel opens is going to be an extremely exciting place. Because of a lot of cheap, educated discipline, labor with natural resources, capital in the south manufacturing in the south. 80 million people on the Chinese board is going to be extremely excited. Once the 38th parallel opens. It’s got everything. It’s amazing. But I mean, you and I, we can’t even go I’ve been there twice. But it’s not legal now for Americans to go. Oh, all we can do is talk about Yeah, we’re on the land of the free, right. Not so free anymore.

Jason Hartman 18:08
Well, that’s certainly true. And speaking of freedom, boy, I you know, in the Constitution, the First Amendment guarantees the right to peaceably assemble. You can’t do that now. That’s for sure. You know, yeah, I mean, these hold these lock downs, you know, the, the the cure being worse than the problem. That is a very valid idea. You know, what do you think is behind it? Is it is it a power grab by the government to just get make the citizens more dependent, get more control over everybody? Any any thoughts about that? Even conspiratorial thoughts?

Jim Rogers 18:41
we entertain, you know, you know, that the government, our government, not just ours wants more power? Every chance they get? They take advantage of it. So of course, yes. Do I like it? No, of course not. I would like to push them back, push them back. And that’s what the founders of the of the country did. But no, they all want all the power they can get. They’ll seize it every chance they get. And that’s what’s going on. Now. The idea that somebody can tell me I cannot go to the butcher or to the barber is lunacy. I live in Singapore where they’re doing the same thing. I’m not picking on America. I’m thinking on everybody is doing I mean look at you know, yeah,

Jason Hartman 19:19
I mean, some countries have much more severe lockdowns. I, I know you were on with my friend George gammon recently, and he lives in Colombia. And, you know, I talked to him yesterday, and they can only go out for 20 minutes a day. And they can only go to the grocery store once a week. I mean, it’s bad enough in the US, but it’s even worse than other places.

Jim Rogers 19:36
But as I understand eight states did not log down. And Hallelujah, whoever they are, I should contribute to those governors. Sweden did not log down. Austria opened up very quickly. So some people have realized Wait a minute, guys, let’s let’s check this.

Jason Hartman 19:52
Yeah, so this will make everybody much more dependent on government. But when we look at the debt problem, of course, the debt is increasing by the US massively. But everywhere else, it’s the same. So it’s all relative, right? Or is it?

Jim Rogers 20:08
No, of course it is. Well, nearly everybody, North Korea is not increasing. But everybody else is. You’re right, right? Oh, of course, we’re all but that there’s just because everybody goes broke. You think that’s good, but everybody will print money. That’s not good. You know, we’re gonna have what they call modern monetary theory and more money today. mmt more money today, whatever it is, you know, suppose everybody does it? Yes. But is that good for the long run? Absolutely not. I mean, people have looked for free lunches for the since the beginning of time. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. And I’m afraid we’re all gonna suffer. I know, we’re all going to suffer later. And how will we suffer inflation is that the suffering you refer to when it comes to the debt and the money printing? Just

Jason Hartman 20:55

Jim Rogers 20:56
Well, certainly, the dead is going to be staggered. You know, in 1920, the UK was the richest, most there was no number two to the UK in 1920. But then they went nuts. They started borrowing money spending money, fast as they could, UK is not even a top 20. Now, now it’s still layer. But the standard of living relative to what they had in 1920 is far far down. The sad part is, that’s what’s going to happen to you and me and my kids more worried about my kids than I am me. Now the standard of living or declining cost of living will go up the cost of production. You know, Mr. Trump says to everybody, let’s bring the factories home, Well, okay, fine, do it. But that means every, if you get a TV, it’s not gonna be a very good TV, if history is any indication, and it’s gonna be expensive. So our standard of living is going to continue to decline. Yeah.

Jason Hartman 21:50
But what that means more jobs in America. So that is a, there’s a flip side of that equation, right?

Jim Rogers 21:55
Well, conceivably, yes. But if we’re less competitive, maybe you’ll have more people buying TVs in Illinois, but you’re not going to have people buying much else from the United States. Because we cannot compete with the US what one of the problems that we have, the cost of production is skyrocketing for many, many reasons. And so that’s why the economy keeps

Jason Hartman 22:18
suffering. You know, we’re in this rare, we have this rare malady going on of supply demand shock, where, you know, usually just demand falls off. And the you go into recession or depression even worse, but, um, but this time, it’s a supply and demand issue. Now, I don’t know if that’ll continue. But certainly the supply chains have been disrupted. So I mean, there’s an argument to bring some of the supply chains on shore for every country, not just the US, right? So that, you know, you can get ventilators and mask when you need them. You. You can’t outsource everything Kenya.

Jim Rogers 22:53
Well, you. you rather live in North Korea or South Korea, right. You know, they do it all themselves. Would you rather live in North Vietnam or South East Germany and West Germany? I mean, these countries don’t exist anymore. But you remember, yeah, no, you can do it that way. But it’s not a very good way to live in Cuba, or Florida, right? I’d rather live here. No, no, you can do it. But as it causes your standard of living, and your country to decline, not the first week, first week, everybody has a new job. Two years later, five years later, the country is continuing to decline. As I said, that’s what happens in the UK. But there are many examples in history where this has been done. And it’s going to decline. Right? We can do it. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean things are gonna be great for my kids or young people,

Jason Hartman 23:47
meaning rising consumer prices, causing a declining standard of living. That’s your point. Right? And that’s quality. Yeah. And well in lower quality, because you’re not outsourcing, to you know, using the economic specialization of the best person or company or country for the job, right? You sell on

Jim Rogers 24:06
price. And if your economy is closed, you don’t have to worry about competition. You don’t have to worry about quality anymore. Oh, that bucket has a hole in it. Don’t worry. You know, it’s a bucket.

Jason Hartman 24:19
That’s crappy GM cars. It was built in the 70s. Right?

Jim Rogers 24:25
In 1965, General Motors was the single richest, most powerful country company in the world. 50 years later, was bankrupt. And you know, what? The Board of Directors, the consultants came in into Detroit and said, the Japanese are coming and the boss go away and leave us alone. 50 years later, General Motors was bankrupt. And Toyota was the biggest richest cloud car company in the world. Yeah, sure. We can close off, but there’s a price. Maybe the current politicians won’t care or know about. But my kids will know and they’ll know and space and all young people will know in space.

Jason Hartman 25:05
It takes a long time for this stuff to play out. But, you know, when we when we talk, you know, look back to before COVID. Right. And all of the trade war talks. I call it a trade negotiation, not a trade war, but the media likes to call it a trade war, given what’s happened with the coronavirus, outbreak and such. You know, what do you think of China’s standing now, I know you’ve been very bullish on China or Asia in general, What’s changed? Has any of your thinking changed about that? In light of what’s happened recently?

Jim Rogers 25:34
Well, I mean, my feelings for and I said for decades that China is on the rise. It’s pretty simple thing you think I was wrong? You were obviously Right.

Jason Hartman 25:45
I mean, listen, I was in Shanghai last year. And I couldn’t believe it, Jim. I mean, now that was, it’s an absolute miracle. I mean, it

Jim Rogers 25:54
certainly has been a miracle for 40 years. So all I was was saying, Listen, guys, China is on the rise, and you better pay attention. It’s going to change, it has changed and is changing. Right now, there’s a huge amount of anti Chinese animosity in the US, I still can’t quite figure it out. I sit and watch this, and what are they talking about? And then I also know what’s dangerous, that kind of hysteria, which is being built up. This is not good for anybody. I don’t understand why. Why everybody’s building up this fury. I do know that throughout history, Jason, when things started going wrong. And whenever things go wrong in a country throughout history, the politicians blame the foreigners. It’s very easy to blame the foreigners they have different languages, different skin, different hair, different everything different religions, is very easy to blame the farm. They smell bad.

Jason Hartman 26:53
Dude, yeah, yeah. Can

Jim Rogers 26:55
you believe how many times I’ve heard people saying their food smells, man. Yeah, you know, but that’s what it is. I’m not picking on American people, all over the world throughout history have worked. Sure. And at the moment, things are not great in America. And China’s been on the rise. So of course, ah, it’s their fault. It’s not your fault. Mr. Voter in Iowa, it’s their fault. And that’s what’s happening.

Jason Hartman 27:21
Yeah, but what does it mean to China’s future? I mean, China, obviously has been an incredible story. No one could argue with that for even a New York minute, but they do have a demographic problem coming. They’ve had that one child policy, about 1015 years from now, that’s going to be a pretty big impact on their economy. But then you’ve got this and, and you’ve got these trust issues. And, of course, the intellectual property issue has always been there. But now you’ve got all this argument about, did they really tell the truth about the outbreak and so forth, and who is even attacking them and the who was not really on the side of the US because Trump has, you know, tack the who

Jim Rogers 28:01
strain in January, January, February, Washington, DC was saying all sorts of good things about China were handled. they handled them. I mean, I, if somebody can sit and say, yes, the Chinese plotted all this, set up this virus, spread it around the world. I don’t know why they did that. But if that’s the that’s what I said before, I cannot understand and believe some of the things I hear people saying, Well, those are

Jason Hartman 28:28
these are outlandish theories. I mean, why would they why would the Chinese do that? It hurts them. They hurt themselves. I mean, it’s been terrible for China. But it’s just the issue of the reaction to the virus. Right? Well,

Jim Rogers 28:39
that’s back to the point. Yes, it’s reacting to foreigners to foreigners. Chinese foreigners in this case have been on the rise, they have been very successful. So of course, you blame it on them. Listen, the British 80 years ago blamed it on the Americans, you know, it’s all the Americans fault. You know, there was a chance in the after the Second World War that American bread would go to war. The British were so furious. I mean, it didn’t happen. But you know, what happens? people blame the foreigner. And that’s what’s happening. Now you can sit and try to be reasonable with people and explain this then the other talk about history. They don’t care. Right, right. Those people smell bad.

Jason Hartman 29:21
And there’s a very short attention span, sadly, so people don’t seem to really think deeply or analyze anything in much detail anymore, unfortunately. So where are we going with this? Jim? I mean, we got a couple more minutes. What can we go back to? Are we in a depression already? Or is it just a recession? I mean, I know there’s not exhaust definition. We’re

Jim Rogers 29:42
in a recession, probably everywhere in the world is in a recession now, which is not going to be cured anytime soon. Now, the markets are different from recession. You know, America is the largest debtor nation in the world. And in the last month, we spent trillions with a tea In a printed trillions, and they’re gonna do more so but not just a man, the Bank of Japan that guy goes to work every day and Bronson printing presses as fast as he can it starts by. So markets are different from economies and markets are having a big rally the rally. Maybe we’ll go down it should go down after the big rally. But you know, I’m sure back by the summer, the in Washington, they know the election is coming. They’re going to do everything they can to make happy people happy until the election. No, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t short most markets unless you’re good short term trader, because I would expect more of this madness will continue. This could turn into a bubble on the upside. Right,

Jason Hartman 30:43
the upside right stocks because of the stimulus, right it is that what make it a bubble. But I mean, you know, the Fed is going in and buying everything. They’re like an asset buyer. Now they’re the biggest investor on the planet, right?

Jim Rogers 30:56
Well, I don’t know, the Bank of Japan was the Titan, right? Yes, your point is very valid, just a tight race, because a lot of people are now spending assets. And the if I weren’t talking to you, I’d probably be buying Japan right now, because the Bank of Japan’s got more money than I do. And all they want to do is buy stocks and ETFs. Isn’t? Is it sound? No, Japan’s too serious to decline? Is the market gonna go up? Because of course, because Japan can make any market go up?

Jason Hartman 31:23
Yeah, it’s it’s absolutely unheard of the time we’re in. So this could cause a bubble on the other end of it. Because of all the stimulus. Yeah.

Jim Rogers 31:33
But not so much the stimulus because of the money that’s being printed and spent and borrowed? Well, I okay. Yes. Generally,

Jason Hartman 31:40
generally call the stimulus.

Jim Rogers 31:40
The money’s going somewhere.

Jason Hartman 31:42
Yeah, absolutely. In America, they want to get it out as fast as they can, because the elections in November. And, Jim, you refer to Wall Street in the markets? Well, in the foreign stock exchanges, too. But what about the main street economy and let’s close with that. Just tell us what this means. For the typical person, middle class America, the main street economy, not the Wall Street

Jim Rogers 32:06
It’s doing serious damage I mentioned to you the UK and the 20s. When they did this, their comparative standard of living, declined enormously. It’s happening in America. I’m going to use a Singapore example since I live here, but it’s a little more neutral. I know a guy’s got five roses, but a few restaurants, Michelin restaurants not not nice restaurants, very nice restaurants. He basically, he’s had to close everything. He’s selling his wine cellar to stay in business. It’s gonna have over a million dollars of debt within a month. never had that before. You’ll have no wine cellar. Now. Yep, he will probably come back. He might come back. You might not. But if he does, it’s not gonna be the same for him as it was six months ago. No, but there are many examples like that of companies that are being damaged, damaged dramatically and did have huge amounts of debt. But he’s got a lot of debt and has a lot more debt. Now. United States has a lot more debt. Now. No matter what you can tell me about how a free lunch is a free lunch. It’s hard to maintain a rapid rate of growth when you have huge amounts of debt. In America. I mean, I don’t like saying I’m an American, I got American kids her. But I know history. And I know what has always happened.

Jason Hartman 33:28
Yep. Nope. There’s there’s no question about it, that debt is a burden on growth, it really makes an economy stagnant and and just turns it into a zombie economy. At some point, I guess the only thing we can hope for is that it’s relative. So most others are in the same boat in terms of other countries. So if that’s any consolation,

Jim Rogers 33:48
no, it’s no consolation to me what what we as investors have to do is now we have to find the countries and companies that are not going to go in such a serious decline as other people. I mean, Japan, I told you, it’s gonna be a nightmare for Japan. But there are other countries like Korea, Korea, which is not going to be nearly as badly damaged. So as an investor, as a citizen, we have to find the places that will be damaged less badly. And unfortunately, I’m afraid I see what they’re what we’re doing in America and it it grieves me. Yeah, it sends me.

Jason Hartman 34:26
Yeah. And you’ve been saying that for a while, but now it’s just accelerated dramatically with this. I mean, the the money printing the, I mean, Jerome Powell has got to be the most bold Federal Reserve Chair ever. You know, he is just like, yeah, you need more Go for it. You know, he even supports policies $3 trillion, and he’s a republican. I mean, it’s just that, wow,

Jim Rogers 34:49
they all want to spend somebody else’s money. There’s an election coming up. They should read it. The problem is they think they’re smarter than history. If they know how. History and the great lesson of history is people do not learn the lessons of history. If they hear that if they even hear the lessons of history, they ignore them and say, Ah, yes book, right. I’m smarter than history. Yeah.

Jason Hartman 35:16
This time. It’s different, famous last words of any event. All right. All right. Well, Jim, thank you so much for joining us. I know it’s late there. So we’ve got to wrap it up. But always appreciate having you on the show. Do you want to give out any website or anything?

Jim Rogers 35:32
No, I don’t have anything to sell. Everybody should watch creating wealth. Everybody should do. No, I don’t I don’t have anything to sell.

Jason Hartman 35:42
And by the way, I got a compliment you You’re always so gracious, you do so many interviews. You don’t need to do that. You know, there’s like you said, there’s you don’t have anything to sell. But you’re really getting the word out to the world. So, you know, we appreciate it. The media in general, you know, you’re you’re just always, we always see what so

Jim Rogers 35:58
Let me tell you, Jason, I, when I was younger, many people helped me in many ways. And even if I look like a fool, I would like to help people if I can. Because when I was young, I can remember some of the guys that went out of their way to help me. And now I hope I can do some of the same for the world.

Jason Hartman 36:20
You’re definitely doing the same for the world and on behalf of the world. We appreciate it represents a world. Thank you. Thank you.

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